[NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
Raymond C. Gauthier
rc.gauthier at comcast.net
Wed Oct 3 09:41:38 AKDT 2012
Gordon,
11-9-1941
Ray
From: Gordon Anderson [mailto:gaa at owt.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 7:20 PM
To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
All,
Lots of good ideas have been discussed today. The great thing about these
ideas is we don't have to wait to see the outcome of trying the different
approaches. I have many years of D8 data so we can run a bunch of approaches
and see what we see. I have a bit of code to write to get the infrastructure
I need in place. If I am going to use age I will need to get birth dates
from you all, so send the data my way.
The place I will start is to calculate the percent of possible points based
on raw score (after k factor is applied) and use only the rounds used in
your total score. I can then sort this data independent of class and see
what the order looks like. If this data clusters by class then this concept
will need more thinking. We can use this data to see when the impact is of
having age classes.
Handicapping is a lot harder issue, I would like to avoid using historical
data to do the calculations, I would like to do all the calculations on the
current or active contest.
I will try to spend some time on this over the weekend and have some data
for you all to play with. Please keep all the ideas coming, this will be
fun!
--Gordon
On Oct 2, 2012, at 6:52 PM, "Rudy" <whyRudy at comcast.net> wrote:
I like #3 - could name it 'Flyer of the Day or Weekend'
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Senior Division (Raymond C. Gauthier)
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:39:05 -0700
From: "Raymond C. Gauthier" <rc.gauthier at comcast.net>
To: "'J N Hiller'" <jnhiller at earthlink.net>, "'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA,WY'"
<nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
Message-ID: <001901cda107$f0481030$d0d83090$@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jim and all,
The system you describe is much like bowling or golf where handicaps make
competition possible across all levels of abilities. I do however see two
major differences which might cause serious problems. First, in golf or
bowling all games/rounds played are factored into the handicap. For
competitive bowlers and golfers this means that annually 100+ scores are
making up the handicap. If every practice round a pattern flyer flew were
properly judged and entered into the handicap calculation there would be
little difference, but of course that's not possible. Second, in golf and
bowling the score is easy to calculate, count the strokes or pins, but
pattern is subjectively judged so the same flight doesn't get the same score
in front of a different judge. I don't see how an accurate handicap could
be determined in 10 competitive flights in front of different judges.
Just thinking out loud,
Ray
From: J N Hiller [mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 6:23 PM
To: rc.gauthier at comcast.net; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA,WY
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
Ok I'll bite.
I believe a better system would be some sort of handicap or adjustment
multiplier based on a running average of recant contest averages. This would
level the playing field for all competitors with at least some competition
history. Any flight slightly above one's average would put him or her in
contention. I'd given this some thought years ago and feel this type of
system could actually replace individual class awards. This would make it a
contest rather than a by-class competition.
We all would be competing with each other based on our demonstrated average
ability. The competitors improving their flight scores would place high as
well as adjusting their handicap multiplier prior to the next contest they
attend. An insensitive to continuously improve as well as a need to do so!
Changing class probably needs to restart one's running average and
associated multiplier. This type of an adjustment number could follow one's
ability change either up or down.
Yes there would still be inequities such as new sequences or weather related
scores affecting our demonstrated average for all rounds flown over say the
past 2, 3 or 4 contests based on all rounds finished. Partial flights or
missed rounds probably shouldn't be considered in a competitor's running
average.
As for number crunching if one's current contest average of say 87% / .87
was divided by their demonstrated ability average of say 85% - .85 their
contest competition score would be 1.02353. This number for this contest
would replace the oldest contest average and used in computing the new
ability average.
This system would only reward those who had a good two days as opposed to I
single high point lucky flight regardless of age or class flown.
Nothing is simple in my world!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Raymond C. Gauthier
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 2:34 PM
To: 'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
All,
I know little about this but that never stopped me before so ..
I think there are two separate and distinct issues:
The first is old guys don't fly as well as not so old guys. I think there
should be a senior division that starts at a senior age like 65, maybe even
70. This would allow all the old guys to compete against each other
regardless of class. Option 2
The second issue is that in District 8 there are contests where a pilot may
be the only flyer in his or her class. For those who have done it - this is
less than great fun and excitement. So an overall class which I'd call the
Open Division (or we could call it classless). Option 3
If we did both we'd pass out awards in each NSRCA class plus Senior Class
and Open Class.
That's my 2 cents worth.
Ray Gauthier
(Who will be the way be practicing and competing next season despite my
absence this year.)
From: Patrick Harris [mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 1:47 PM
To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
So now that most of you have had a while to think about this, here are the
options.
"1" Leave the system as is
"2" Set our system up as IMAC does with a "Seniors Division" only
"3" Set up our system per "Seniors Division", but open to all ages.
"4" Integrate both.
If we go with "3", what do we call it?
Ideas...input
Pat Harris
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
wrote:
Well I used Linda's iPhone and it made me 120. I like mine better.
Sent from my Xoom using Ice Creme Sandwich
On Sep 26, 2012 8:23 PM, "Gordon Anderson" <gaa at owt.com> wrote:
Hey Dennis,
You must be counting your age base 16, or maybe you are using that samsung
not so smartphone to figure out your age... dude, get an iPhone!
--Gordon
On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com> wrote:
Well I guess this just leaves me out. I won't be 55 for a few more years.
From: <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
<mailto:dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of <mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:32 AM
To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
But I'm so young! ...and shy
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
----- Reply message -----
From: "Dennis Cone" < <mailto:patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
To: "'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY'" <
<mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2012 10:24 am
Age handicap? That's not fair. It gives Rex a big lead.
From: <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:%5Bmailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>
[mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
<mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 9:30 PM
To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
Mind your elders, young man!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
----- Reply message -----
From: "astropuppy" < <mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com> astropuppy at gmail.com>
To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" < <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
Date: Tue, Sep 25, 2012 8:16 pm
For the record, even though I am younger then Rex; I will be 55 next year.
Another idea would be to use pilot age for handicapping. Something simple:
Calculate the adjusted score by taking flight percentage as Pat outline then
multiplying it times the pilots age.
Mike
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
gaa at owt.com> wrote:
Pat,
I agree, it adds another element of competition and all it takes is a little
more reporting. I see no reason not to do it, you should write up the idea
and send it to Rex to publish in the K-Factor! Other districts may want to
try the same thing.
--Gordon
On Sep 25, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com>
harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
Gordon,
Actually Mike's idea has a lot of merit as well. By including all ages, it
creates a contest within a contest. Besides, It's the only way I'll ever be
able to beat Alex! For most of the year, Dick flying Sportsman by himself,
would of had a chance to beat guys in all other classes, Pretty interesting.
Pat
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
gaa at owt.com> wrote:
Pat,
This would be pretty easy to do. I think I can easily add this to the
existing program. I will work on this and have it ready for next season, its
basically just a reporting issue, the only new data I need is age.
Cool idea.
--Gordon
On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com>
harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
At the Richland contest, I discussed with a few attendees, the possibility
of introducing a Seniors Division into our events such as IMAC does.
Some of you may be aware of a gentleman by the name of Ron Smith (AKA
Captain Kaos). Ron has been around the pattern scene for many years (thus
the AKA name). Ron was instrumental in working with IMAC to set up the
current Seniors Division, first introduced a few years ago in the IMAC
Pacific Northwest District. IMAC has now rolled out this program on a
nationwide basis.
I have been in contact with Ron and he is excited at the possibility of
introducing a similar program into Pattern. Ron has stressed he will be of
help in any way he can.
The mechanics of this program are very straight forward. First off, IMAC
uses age 55 or older as their cutoff (I think that pretty much includes all
of us). In a nutshell, what they do is use the "percentage of possible
points" per round compared to all other competitors' scores. By doing this,
you are competing with all other contestants, regardless of their class. So
in other words, if a Sportsman flew a round and received 75% of the total
points available for that class, he would finish higher versus a Master's
pilot scoring 74% of the total points available.
Gordon's spreadsheet is already calculating a "percentage of points", so I
trust it would not be too difficult to integrate it into our system.
Following is the info off the IMAC web site that should clear up any
confusion I may have created:
Starting in 2009, we are introducing the "IMAC Senior Points Series". This
series is open to any IMAC member who competes in any IMAC Regional Points
Series (IRPS) contest, in the Sportsman thru Unlimited class and is
fortunate enough to be 55 years of age or older at the start of any IRPS
contest. (Sorry kids, you will just have to wait a few more years.) This
series, held in the NW region since 2004, has been a great success and is
now expanding to all IMAC regions.
At each contest throughout the flying season, the Senior Competition is held
in conjunction with your normal IMAC class. Scores are based on the pilots
percentage achieved against the maximum possible raw score for their class.
You are flying against other Senior pilots in Sportsman thru Unlimited
classes.
For example, the 2009 Sportsman sequence has a total of 2,210 points
available per judge per sequence; with 2 judges this equals 4,420 points. If
the pilot's raw score is 3,536 points that is 80.00% of the available
points. If an Unlimited Senior pilot scores 75.00% of his available points,
the sportsman pilot wins that particular sequence. These percentage scores
are calculated in the scoring program automatically and normalized against
all other Senior pilots by round. Standard formats for throw-out sequences
and normalizing are still the same.
There are no additional fees, sequences, or rounds flown and you are still
competing in your normal IMAC class. All points, placements and/or trophies
you earn for your class are still awarded. The host club has the option to
award a 1st place Senior award if they choose, but it is not mandatory.
Entering the Senior Competition is the eligible pilot's choice and is not
mandatory, however, if you decline to join, your points are not
retroactively applied later in the year. Once you join then the region will
keep your scores for the year.
At the end of the regular season in each region and just like the regular
Regional Points Series, the Senior Points Series winners for the season will
be awarded first through third place based on their top five contests
(normalized - as in the regular class regional points standings and ties
will be settled in the same manner).
Pat Harris _______________________________________________
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