[NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
Patrick Harris
harris7148 at gmail.com
Wed Oct 3 08:18:57 AKDT 2012
Yeah, Life's not fair. When you're young, you have a stiff manhood and limp
fingers, when your old....well you get the idea. [?]
09/30/50 DOB
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Dennis CONE <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>wrote:
> If we are going to use a traveling trophy, might i suggest a bottle of
> Viagra mounted on a nice plaqe. It would have to be refilled by the old
> recipient. Gordon could donate one of his bottles to get it started.
>
> Typed on my Android phone. Much smarter than an iPhone.
>
> alan wellentin <a_wellentin at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 10-28-65
>
> *From:* J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
> *To:* "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 3, 2012 2:01 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>
> 11-11-41
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf Of *Gordon Anderson
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 02, 2012 7:20 PM
> *To:* AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>
> All,
>
> Lots of good ideas have been discussed today. The great thing about these
> ideas is we don't have to wait to see the outcome of trying the different
> approaches. I have many years of D8 data so we can run a bunch of
> approaches and see what we see. I have a bit of code to write to get the
> infrastructure I need in place. If I am going to use age I will need to get
> birth dates from you all, so send the data my way.
> The place I will start is to calculate the percent of possible points
> based on raw score (after k factor is applied) and use only the rounds used
> in your total score. I can then sort this data independent of class and see
> what the order looks like. If this data clusters by class then this concept
> will need more thinking. We can use this data to see when the impact is of
> having age classes.
> Handicapping is a lot harder issue, I would like to avoid using historical
> data to do the calculations, I would like to do all the calculations on the
> current or active contest.
> I will try to spend some time on this over the weekend and have some data
> for you all to play with. Please keep all the ideas coming, this will be
> fun!
>
> --Gordon
>
> On Oct 2, 2012, at 6:52 PM, "Rudy" <whyRudy at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> I like #3 - could name it 'Flyer of the Day or Weekend'
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> nsrca-dist8-request at lists.nsrca.org
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 6:39 PM
> To: nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: NSRCA-dist8 Digest, Vol 49, Issue 7
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Senior Division (Raymond C. Gauthier)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:39:05 -0700
> From: "Raymond C. Gauthier" <rc.gauthier at comcast.net>
> To: "'J N Hiller'" <jnhiller at earthlink.net>, "'AK, ID, MT, OR,
> WA,WY'"
> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
> Message-ID: <001901cda107$f0481030$d0d83090$@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Jim and all,
>
>
>
> The system you describe is much like bowling or golf where handicaps make
> competition possible across all levels of abilities. I do however see two
> major differences which might cause serious problems. First, in golf or
> bowling all games/rounds played are factored into the handicap. For
> competitive bowlers and golfers this means that annually 100+ scores are
> making up the handicap. If every practice round a pattern flyer flew were
> properly judged and entered into the handicap calculation there would be
> little difference, but of course that's not possible. Second, in golf and
> bowling the score is easy to calculate, count the strokes or pins, but
> pattern is subjectively judged so the same flight doesn't get the same
> score
> in front of a different judge. I don't see how an accurate handicap could
> be determined in 10 competitive flights in front of different judges.
>
>
>
> Just thinking out loud,
>
>
>
> Ray
>
>
>
>
>
> From: J N Hiller [mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 6:23 PM
> To: rc.gauthier at comcast.net; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA,WY
> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>
>
>
> Ok I'll bite.
>
> I believe a better system would be some sort of handicap or adjustment
> multiplier based on a running average of recant contest averages. This
> would
> level the playing field for all competitors with at least some competition
> history. Any flight slightly above one's average would put him or her in
> contention. I'd given this some thought years ago and feel this type of
> system could actually replace individual class awards. This would make it a
> contest rather than a by-class competition.
>
> We all would be competing with each other based on our demonstrated average
> ability. The competitors improving their flight scores would place high as
> well as adjusting their handicap multiplier prior to the next contest they
> attend. An insensitive to continuously improve as well as a need to do so!
>
> Changing class probably needs to restart one's running average and
> associated multiplier. This type of an adjustment number could follow one's
> ability change either up or down.
>
> Yes there would still be inequities such as new sequences or weather
> related
> scores affecting our demonstrated average for all rounds flown over say the
> past 2, 3 or 4 contests based on all rounds finished. Partial flights or
> missed rounds probably shouldn't be considered in a competitor's running
> average.
>
> As for number crunching if one's current contest average of say 87% / .87
> was divided by their demonstrated ability average of say 85% - .85 their
> contest competition score would be 1.02353. This number for this contest
> would replace the oldest contest average and used in computing the new
> ability average.
>
> This system would only reward those who had a good two days as opposed to I
> single high point lucky flight regardless of age or class flown.
>
> Nothing is simple in my world!
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Raymond C.
> Gauthier
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 2:34 PM
> To: 'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>
>
>
> All,
>
>
>
> I know little about this but that never stopped me before so ..
>
>
>
> I think there are two separate and distinct issues:
>
>
>
> The first is old guys don't fly as well as not so old guys. I think there
> should be a senior division that starts at a senior age like 65, maybe even
> 70. This would allow all the old guys to compete against each other
> regardless of class. Option 2
>
>
>
> The second issue is that in District 8 there are contests where a pilot may
> be the only flyer in his or her class. For those who have done it - this
> is
> less than great fun and excitement. So an overall class which I'd call the
> Open Division (or we could call it classless). Option 3
>
>
>
> If we did both we'd pass out awards in each NSRCA class plus Senior Class
> and Open Class.
>
>
>
> That's my 2 cents worth.
>
>
>
> Ray Gauthier
>
> (Who will be the way be practicing and competing next season despite my
> absence this year.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Patrick Harris [mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 1:47 PM
> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>
>
>
> So now that most of you have had a while to think about this, here are the
> options.
>
>
>
> "1" Leave the system as is
>
>
>
> "2" Set our system up as IMAC does with a "Seniors Division" only
>
>
>
> "3" Set up our system per "Seniors Division", but open to all ages.
>
>
>
> "4" Integrate both.
>
>
>
> If we go with "3", what do we call it?
>
>
> Ideas...input
>
>
>
> Pat Harris
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Well I used Linda's iPhone and it made me 120. I like mine better.
>
> Sent from my Xoom using Ice Creme Sandwich
>
> On Sep 26, 2012 8:23 PM, "Gordon Anderson" <gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Dennis,
>
>
>
> You must be counting your age base 16, or maybe you are using that samsung
> not so smartphone to figure out your age... dude, get an iPhone!
>
>
>
> --Gordon
>
>
>
> On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Well I guess this just leaves me out. I won't be 55 for a few more years.
>
>
>
> From: <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
> <mailto:dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
> Behalf Of <mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:32 AM
> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>
>
>
> But I'm so young! ...and shy
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Dennis Cone" < <mailto:patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
> patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
> To: "'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY'" <
> <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
> Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2012 10:24 am
>
>
>
> Age handicap? That's not fair. It gives Rex a big lead.
>
>
>
> From: <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:%5Bmailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>
> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> <mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 9:30 PM
> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>
>
>
> Mind your elders, young man!
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "astropuppy" < <mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com> astropuppy at gmail.com>
> To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" < <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
> Date: Tue, Sep 25, 2012 8:16 pm
>
>
> For the record, even though I am younger then Rex; I will be 55 next year.
>
>
>
> Another idea would be to use pilot age for handicapping. Something simple:
> Calculate the adjusted score by taking flight percentage as Pat outline
> then
> multiplying it times the pilots age.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
> gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>
> Pat,
>
>
>
> I agree, it adds another element of competition and all it takes is a
> little
> more reporting. I see no reason not to do it, you should write up the idea
> and send it to Rex to publish in the K-Factor! Other districts may want to
> try the same thing.
>
>
>
> --Gordon
>
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com
> >
> harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Gordon,
>
> Actually Mike's idea has a lot of merit as well. By including all ages, it
> creates a contest within a contest. Besides, It's the only way I'll ever be
> able to beat Alex! For most of the year, Dick flying Sportsman by himself,
> would of had a chance to beat guys in all other classes, Pretty
> interesting.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
> gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Pat,
>
>
>
> This would be pretty easy to do. I think I can easily add this to the
> existing program. I will work on this and have it ready for next season,
> its
> basically just a reporting issue, the only new data I need is age.
>
>
>
> Cool idea.
>
>
>
> --Gordon
>
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com
> >
> harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> At the Richland contest, I discussed with a few attendees, the possibility
> of introducing a Seniors Division into our events such as IMAC does.
>
>
>
> Some of you may be aware of a gentleman by the name of Ron Smith (AKA
> Captain Kaos). Ron has been around the pattern scene for many years (thus
> the AKA name). Ron was instrumental in working with IMAC to set up the
> current Seniors Division, first introduced a few years ago in the IMAC
> Pacific Northwest District. IMAC has now rolled out this program on a
> nationwide basis.
>
>
>
> I have been in contact with Ron and he is excited at the possibility of
> introducing a similar program into Pattern. Ron has stressed he will be of
> help in any way he can.
>
>
>
> The mechanics of this program are very straight forward. First off, IMAC
> uses age 55 or older as their cutoff (I think that pretty much includes all
> of us). In a nutshell, what they do is use the "percentage of possible
> points" per round compared to all other competitors' scores. By doing this,
> you are competing with all other contestants, regardless of their class. So
> in other words, if a Sportsman flew a round and received 75% of the total
> points available for that class, he would finish higher versus a Master's
> pilot scoring 74% of the total points available.
>
>
>
> Gordon's spreadsheet is already calculating a "percentage of points", so I
> trust it would not be too difficult to integrate it into our system.
>
>
>
> Following is the info off the IMAC web site that should clear up any
> confusion I may have created:
>
>
>
> Starting in 2009, we are introducing the "IMAC Senior Points Series". This
> series is open to any IMAC member who competes in any IMAC Regional Points
> Series (IRPS) contest, in the Sportsman thru Unlimited class and is
> fortunate enough to be 55 years of age or older at the start of any IRPS
> contest. (Sorry kids, you will just have to wait a few more years.) This
> series, held in the NW region since 2004, has been a great success and is
> now expanding to all IMAC regions.
>
> At each contest throughout the flying season, the Senior Competition is
> held
> in conjunction with your normal IMAC class. Scores are based on the pilots
> percentage achieved against the maximum possible raw score for their class.
> You are flying against other Senior pilots in Sportsman thru Unlimited
> classes.
>
> For example, the 2009 Sportsman sequence has a total of 2,210 points
> available per judge per sequence; with 2 judges this equals 4,420 points.
> If
> the pilot's raw score is 3,536 points that is 80.00% of the available
> points. If an Unlimited Senior pilot scores 75.00% of his available points,
> the sportsman pilot wins that particular sequence. These percentage scores
> are calculated in the scoring program automatically and normalized against
> all other Senior pilots by round. Standard formats for throw-out sequences
> and normalizing are still the same.
>
> There are no additional fees, sequences, or rounds flown and you are still
> competing in your normal IMAC class. All points, placements and/or trophies
> you earn for your class are still awarded. The host club has the option to
> award a 1st place Senior award if they choose, but it is not mandatory.
>
> Entering the Senior Competition is the eligible pilot's choice and is not
> mandatory, however, if you decline to join, your points are not
> retroactively applied later in the year. Once you join then the region will
> keep your scores for the year.
>
> At the end of the regular season in each region and just like the regular
> Regional Points Series, the Senior Points Series winners for the season
> will
> be awarded first through third place based on their top five contests
> (normalized - as in the regular class regional points standings and ties
> will be settled in the same manner).
>
> Pat Harris _______________________________________________
>
>
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