[NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division

Dennis Cone patternpilot25 at gmail.com
Tue Oct 2 20:38:34 AKDT 2012 

Thanks Pat. A little clearer now.

Dennis

Sent from my Xoom using Ice Creme Sandwich
On Oct 2, 2012 9:22 PM, "Patrick Harris" <harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dennis,
>
> To answer your question, yes these are options that are on top of regular
> scoring for each class. We would still run things exactly the same way and
> just use the data to crown a Senior, Over All winner, etc.
>
> Pat
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 9:07 PM, trexlesh at msn.com <trexlesh at msn.com> wrote:
>
>> I was just trying to establish a handicap....lying is a handicap!!!
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "Gordon Anderson" <gaa at owt.com>
>> To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>> Date: Tue, Oct 2, 2012 8:15 pm
>>
>>
>> 1948? or 1958?
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2012, at 8:11 PM, trexlesh at msn.com <trexlesh at msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> April 30, 1948......  Or there abouts!  :-)
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "Gordon Anderson" <gaa at owt.com>
>> To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>> Date: Tue, Oct 2, 2012 7:20 pm
>>
>>
>> All,
>>
>> Lots of good ideas have been discussed today. The great thing about these
>> ideas is we don't have to wait to see the outcome of trying the different
>> approaches. I have many years of D8 data so we can run a bunch of
>> approaches and see what we see. I have a bit of code to write to get the
>> infrastructure I need in place. If I am going to use age I will need to get
>> birth dates from you all, so send the data my way.
>> The place I will start is to calculate the percent of possible points
>> based on raw score (after k factor is applied) and use only the rounds used
>> in your total score. I can then sort this data independent of class and see
>> what the order looks like. If this data clusters by class then this concept
>> will need more thinking. We can use this data to see when the impact is of
>> having age classes.
>> Handicapping is a lot harder issue, I would like to avoid using
>> historical data to do the calculations, I would like to do all the
>> calculations on the current or active contest.
>> I will try to spend some time on this over the weekend and have some data
>> for you all to play with. Please keep all the ideas coming, this will be
>> fun!
>>
>> --Gordon
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2012, at 6:52 PM, "Rudy" <whyRudy at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> I like #3 - could name it 'Flyer of the Day or Weekend'
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> nsrca-dist8-request at lists.nsrca.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 6:39 PM
>> To: nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: NSRCA-dist8 Digest, Vol 49, Issue 7
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re: Senior Division (Raymond C. Gauthier)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:39:05 -0700
>> From: "Raymond C. Gauthier" <rc.gauthier at comcast.net>
>> To: "'J N Hiller'" <jnhiller at earthlink.net>, "'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA,WY'"
>>  <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>> Message-ID: <001901cda107$f0481030$d0d83090$@comcast.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Jim and all,
>>
>>
>>
>> The system you describe is much like bowling or golf where handicaps make
>> competition possible across all levels of abilities.  I do however see two
>> major differences which might cause serious problems.  First, in golf or
>> bowling all games/rounds played are factored into the handicap.  For
>> competitive bowlers and golfers this means that annually 100+ scores are
>> making up the handicap.  If every practice round a pattern flyer flew were
>> properly judged and entered into the handicap calculation there would be
>> little difference, but of course that's not possible.  Second, in golf and
>> bowling the score is easy to calculate, count the strokes or pins, but
>> pattern is subjectively judged so the same flight doesn't get the same
>> score
>> in front of a different judge.  I don't see how an accurate handicap could
>> be determined in 10 competitive flights in front of different judges.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just thinking out loud,
>>
>>
>>
>> Ray
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: J N Hiller [mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 6:23 PM
>> To: rc.gauthier at comcast.net; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA,WY
>> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> Ok I'll bite.
>>
>> I believe a better system would be some sort of handicap or adjustment
>> multiplier based on a running average of recant contest averages. This
>> would
>> level the playing field for all competitors with at least some competition
>> history. Any flight slightly above one's average would put him or her in
>> contention. I'd given this some thought years ago and feel this type of
>> system could actually replace individual class awards. This would make it
>> a
>> contest rather than a by-class competition.
>>
>> We all would be competing with each other based on our demonstrated
>> average
>> ability. The competitors improving their flight scores would place high as
>> well as adjusting their handicap multiplier prior to the next contest they
>> attend. An insensitive to continuously improve as well as a need to do so!
>>
>> Changing class probably needs to restart one's running average and
>> associated multiplier. This type of an adjustment number could follow
>> one's
>> ability change either up or down.
>>
>> Yes there would still be inequities such as new sequences or weather
>> related
>> scores affecting our demonstrated average for all rounds flown over say
>> the
>> past 2, 3 or 4 contests based on all rounds finished. Partial flights or
>> missed rounds probably shouldn't be considered in a competitor's running
>> average.
>>
>> As for number crunching if one's current contest average of say 87% /
>> ...87
>> was divided by their demonstrated ability average of say 85% - ...85 their
>>
>> contest competition score would be 1.02353. This number for this contest
>> would replace the oldest contest average and used in computing the new
>> ability average.
>>
>> This system would only reward those who had a good two days as opposed to
>> I
>> single high point lucky flight regardless of age or class flown.
>>
>> Nothing is simple in my world!
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Raymond C.
>> Gauthier
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 2:34 PM
>> To: 'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I know little about this but that never stopped me before so ....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think there are two separate and distinct issues:
>>
>>
>>
>> The first is old guys don't fly as well as not so old guys.  I think there
>> should be a senior division that starts at a senior age like 65, maybe
>> even
>> 70.  This would allow all the old guys to compete against each other
>> regardless of class.  Option 2
>>
>>
>>
>> The second issue is that in District 8 there are contests where a pilot
>> may
>> be the only flyer in his or her class.  For those who have done it - this
>> is
>> less than great fun and excitement.  So an overall class which I'd call
>> the
>> Open Division (or we could call it classless). Option 3
>>
>>
>>
>> If we did both we'd pass out awards in each NSRCA class plus Senior Class
>> and Open Class.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's my 2 cents worth.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ray Gauthier
>>
>> (Who will be the way be practicing and competing next season despite my
>> absence this year.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Patrick Harris [mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 1:47 PM
>> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> So now that most of you have had a while to think about this, here are the
>> options.
>>
>>
>>
>> "1" Leave the system as is
>>
>>
>>
>> "2" Set our system up as IMAC does with a "Seniors Division" only
>>
>>
>>
>> "3" Set up our system per "Seniors Division",  but open to all ages.
>>
>>
>>
>> "4" Integrate both.
>>
>>
>>
>> If we go with "3", what do we call it?
>>
>>
>> Ideas...input
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat Harris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Well I used Linda's iPhone and it made me 120. I like mine better.
>>
>> Sent from my Xoom using Ice Creme Sandwich
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2012 8:23 PM, "Gordon Anderson" <gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Dennis,
>>
>>
>>
>> You must be counting your age base 16, or maybe you are using that samsung
>> not so smartphone to figure out your age... dude, get an iPhone!
>>
>>
>>
>> --Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Well I guess this just leaves me out. I won't be 55 for a few more years.
>>
>>
>>
>> From:  <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>> nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>> <mailto:dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>> Behalf Of  <mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:32 AM
>> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> But I'm so young!    ...and shy
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "Dennis Cone" < <mailto:patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>> patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>> To: "&apos;AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY&apos;" <
>> <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>> Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2012 10:24 am
>>
>>
>>
>> Age handicap? That's not fair. It gives Rex a big lead.
>>
>>
>>
>> From:  <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>> nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> <mailto:%5Bmailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>
>> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> <mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 9:30 PM
>> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> Mind your elders, young man!
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "astropuppy" < <mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com> astropuppy at gmail.com>
>> To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" < <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>> Date: Tue, Sep 25, 2012 8:16 pm
>>
>>
>> For the record, even though I am younger then Rex; I will be 55 next year.
>>
>>
>>
>> Another idea would be to use pilot age for handicapping. Something simple:
>> Calculate the adjusted score by taking flight percentage as Pat outline
>> then
>> multiplying it times the pilots age.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
>> gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>>
>> Pat,
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree, it adds another element of competition and all it takes is a
>> little
>> more reporting. I see no reason not to do it, you should write up the idea
>> and send it to Rex to publish in the K-Factor! Other districts may want to
>> try the same thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:
>> harris7148 at gmail.com>
>> harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Gordon,
>>
>> Actually Mike's idea has a lot of merit as well. By including all ages, it
>> creates a contest within a contest. Besides, It's the only way I'll ever
>> be
>> able to beat Alex! For most of the year, Dick flying Sportsman by himself,
>> would of had a chance to beat guys in all other classes, Pretty
>> interesting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
>> gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat,
>>
>>
>>
>> This would be pretty easy to do. I think I can easily add this to the
>> existing program. I will work on this and have it ready for next season,
>> its
>> basically just a reporting issue, the only new data I need is age.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cool idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:
>> harris7148 at gmail.com>
>> harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> At the Richland contest, I discussed with a few attendees, the possibility
>> of introducing a Seniors Division into our events such as IMAC does.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some of you may be aware of a gentleman by the name of Ron Smith (AKA
>> Captain Kaos).  Ron has been around the pattern scene for many years (thus
>> the AKA name). Ron was instrumental in working with IMAC to set up the
>> current Seniors Division, first introduced a few years ago in the IMAC
>> Pacific Northwest District. IMAC has now rolled out this program on a
>> nationwide basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been in contact with Ron and he is excited at the possibility of
>> introducing a similar program into Pattern. Ron has stressed he will be of
>> help in any way he can.
>>
>>
>>
>> The mechanics of this program are very straight forward. First off, IMAC
>> uses age 55 or older as their cutoff (I think that pretty much includes
>> all
>> of us). In a nutshell, what they do is use the "percentage of possible
>> points" per round compared to all other competitors' scores. By doing
>> this,
>> you are competing with all other contestants, regardless of their class.
>> So
>> in other words, if a Sportsman flew a round and received 75% of the total
>> points available for that class, he would finish higher versus a Master's
>> pilot scoring 74% of the total points available.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gordon's spreadsheet is already calculating a "percentage of points", so I
>> trust it would not be too difficult to integrate it into our system.
>>
>>
>>
>> Following is the info off the IMAC web site that should clear up any
>> confusion I may have created:
>>
>>
>>
>> Starting in 2009, we are introducing the "IMAC Senior Points Series". This
>> series is open to any IMAC member who competes in any IMAC Regional Points
>> Series (IRPS) contest, in the Sportsman thru Unlimited class and is
>> fortunate enough to be 55 years of age or older at the start of any IRPS
>> contest. (Sorry kids, you will just have to wait a few more years.) This
>> series, held in the NW region since 2004, has been a great success and is
>> now expanding to all IMAC regions.
>>
>> At each contest throughout the flying season, the Senior Competition is
>> held
>> in conjunction with your normal IMAC class. Scores are based on the pilots
>> percentage achieved against the maximum possible raw score for their
>> class.
>> You are flying against other Senior pilots in Sportsman thru Unlimited
>> classes.
>>
>> For example, the 2009 Sportsman sequence has a total of 2,210 points
>> available per judge per sequence; with 2 judges this equals 4,420 points.
>> If
>> the pilot's raw score is 3,536 points that is 80.00% of the available
>> points. If an Unlimited Senior pilot scores 75.00% of his available
>> points,
>> the sportsman pilot wins that particular sequence. These percentage scores
>> are calculated in the scoring program automatically and normalized against
>> all other Senior pilots by round. Standard formats for throw-out sequences
>> and normalizing are still the same.
>>
>> There are no additional fees, sequences, or rounds flown and you are still
>> competing in your normal IMAC class. All points, placements and/or
>> trophies
>> you earn for your class are still awarded. The host club has the option to
>> award a 1st place Senior award if they choose, but it is not mandatory.
>>
>> Entering the Senior Competition is the eligible pilot's choice and is not
>> mandatory, however, if you decline to join, your points are not
>> retroactively applied later in the year. Once you join then the region
>> will
>> keep your scores for the year.
>>
>> At the end of the regular season in each region and just like the regular
>> Regional Points Series, the Senior Points Series winners for the season
>> will
>> be awarded first through third place based on their top five contests
>> (normalized - as in the regular class regional points standings and ties
>> will be settled in the same manner).
>>
>> Pat Harris _______________________________________________
>>
>>
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