[NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
Gordon Anderson
gaa at owt.com
Tue Oct 2 19:14:12 AKDT 2012
OK, here is a quick and dirty calculation based on the Tri-Cities contest. Turns out this was pretty easy to do but a bit manual. This is the percent of possible points sorted. I did not include Alexander because he flew both F and P in FAI and I don't have an easy way include him in this quick calculation.
82.8%
Brett Bowen
82.2%
Alan Wellentin
79.8%
Patrick Harris
79.5%
Bill Bowen
79.4%
Dick Matson
78.0%
Rex Lesher
77.7%
Jim Hiller
76.2%
Gordon Anderson
75.8%
Lyle Laughery
75.6%
Mike Riggs
74.6%
Pavel Safarik
73.3%
Freddy Hagens
73.0%
Greg Noyce
70.5%
Scott Stebbins
66.2%
Wayne Lovett
58.2%
Tim Stebbins
48.8%
Dennis Cone
--Gordon
On Oct 2, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Gordon Anderson <gaa at owt.com> wrote:
> All,
>
> Lots of good ideas have been discussed today. The great thing about these ideas is we don't have to wait to see the outcome of trying the different approaches. I have many years of D8 data so we can run a bunch of approaches and see what we see. I have a bit of code to write to get the infrastructure I need in place. If I am going to use age I will need to get birth dates from you all, so send the data my way.
> The place I will start is to calculate the percent of possible points based on raw score (after k factor is applied) and use only the rounds used in your total score. I can then sort this data independent of class and see what the order looks like. If this data clusters by class then this concept will need more thinking. We can use this data to see when the impact is of having age classes.
> Handicapping is a lot harder issue, I would like to avoid using historical data to do the calculations, I would like to do all the calculations on the current or active contest.
> I will try to spend some time on this over the weekend and have some data for you all to play with. Please keep all the ideas coming, this will be fun!
>
> --Gordon
>
> On Oct 2, 2012, at 6:52 PM, "Rudy" <whyRudy at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I like #3 - could name it 'Flyer of the Day or Weekend'
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> nsrca-dist8-request at lists.nsrca.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 6:39 PM
>> To: nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: NSRCA-dist8 Digest, Vol 49, Issue 7
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Senior Division (Raymond C. Gauthier)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:39:05 -0700
>> From: "Raymond C. Gauthier" <rc.gauthier at comcast.net>
>> To: "'J N Hiller'" <jnhiller at earthlink.net>, "'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA,WY'"
>> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>> Message-ID: <001901cda107$f0481030$d0d83090$@comcast.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Jim and all,
>>
>>
>>
>> The system you describe is much like bowling or golf where handicaps make
>> competition possible across all levels of abilities. I do however see two
>> major differences which might cause serious problems. First, in golf or
>> bowling all games/rounds played are factored into the handicap. For
>> competitive bowlers and golfers this means that annually 100+ scores are
>> making up the handicap. If every practice round a pattern flyer flew were
>> properly judged and entered into the handicap calculation there would be
>> little difference, but of course that's not possible. Second, in golf and
>> bowling the score is easy to calculate, count the strokes or pins, but
>> pattern is subjectively judged so the same flight doesn't get the same score
>> in front of a different judge. I don't see how an accurate handicap could
>> be determined in 10 competitive flights in front of different judges.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just thinking out loud,
>>
>>
>>
>> Ray
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: J N Hiller [mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 6:23 PM
>> To: rc.gauthier at comcast.net; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA,WY
>> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> Ok I'll bite.
>>
>> I believe a better system would be some sort of handicap or adjustment
>> multiplier based on a running average of recant contest averages. This would
>> level the playing field for all competitors with at least some competition
>> history. Any flight slightly above one's average would put him or her in
>> contention. I'd given this some thought years ago and feel this type of
>> system could actually replace individual class awards. This would make it a
>> contest rather than a by-class competition.
>>
>> We all would be competing with each other based on our demonstrated average
>> ability. The competitors improving their flight scores would place high as
>> well as adjusting their handicap multiplier prior to the next contest they
>> attend. An insensitive to continuously improve as well as a need to do so!
>>
>> Changing class probably needs to restart one's running average and
>> associated multiplier. This type of an adjustment number could follow one's
>> ability change either up or down.
>>
>> Yes there would still be inequities such as new sequences or weather related
>> scores affecting our demonstrated average for all rounds flown over say the
>> past 2, 3 or 4 contests based on all rounds finished. Partial flights or
>> missed rounds probably shouldn't be considered in a competitor's running
>> average.
>>
>> As for number crunching if one's current contest average of say 87% / .87
>> was divided by their demonstrated ability average of say 85% - .85 their
>> contest competition score would be 1.02353. This number for this contest
>> would replace the oldest contest average and used in computing the new
>> ability average.
>>
>> This system would only reward those who had a good two days as opposed to I
>> single high point lucky flight regardless of age or class flown.
>>
>> Nothing is simple in my world!
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Raymond C. Gauthier
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 2:34 PM
>> To: 'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I know little about this but that never stopped me before so ..
>>
>>
>>
>> I think there are two separate and distinct issues:
>>
>>
>>
>> The first is old guys don't fly as well as not so old guys. I think there
>> should be a senior division that starts at a senior age like 65, maybe even
>> 70. This would allow all the old guys to compete against each other
>> regardless of class. Option 2
>>
>>
>>
>> The second issue is that in District 8 there are contests where a pilot may
>> be the only flyer in his or her class. For those who have done it - this is
>> less than great fun and excitement. So an overall class which I'd call the
>> Open Division (or we could call it classless). Option 3
>>
>>
>>
>> If we did both we'd pass out awards in each NSRCA class plus Senior Class
>> and Open Class.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's my 2 cents worth.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ray Gauthier
>>
>> (Who will be the way be practicing and competing next season despite my
>> absence this year.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Patrick Harris [mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 1:47 PM
>> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> So now that most of you have had a while to think about this, here are the
>> options.
>>
>>
>>
>> "1" Leave the system as is
>>
>>
>>
>> "2" Set our system up as IMAC does with a "Seniors Division" only
>>
>>
>>
>> "3" Set up our system per "Seniors Division", but open to all ages.
>>
>>
>>
>> "4" Integrate both.
>>
>>
>>
>> If we go with "3", what do we call it?
>>
>>
>> Ideas...input
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat Harris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Well I used Linda's iPhone and it made me 120. I like mine better.
>>
>> Sent from my Xoom using Ice Creme Sandwich
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2012 8:23 PM, "Gordon Anderson" <gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Dennis,
>>
>>
>>
>> You must be counting your age base 16, or maybe you are using that samsung
>> not so smartphone to figure out your age... dude, get an iPhone!
>>
>>
>>
>> --Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Well I guess this just leaves me out. I won't be 55 for a few more years.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>> nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>> <mailto:dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>> Behalf Of <mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:32 AM
>> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> But I'm so young! ...and shy
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "Dennis Cone" < <mailto:patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>> patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY'" <
>> <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>> Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2012 10:24 am
>>
>>
>>
>> Age handicap? That's not fair. It gives Rex a big lead.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>> nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> <mailto:%5Bmailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>
>> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> <mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 9:30 PM
>> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>
>>
>>
>> Mind your elders, young man!
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "astropuppy" < <mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com> astropuppy at gmail.com>
>> To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" < <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>> Date: Tue, Sep 25, 2012 8:16 pm
>>
>>
>> For the record, even though I am younger then Rex; I will be 55 next year.
>>
>>
>>
>> Another idea would be to use pilot age for handicapping. Something simple:
>> Calculate the adjusted score by taking flight percentage as Pat outline then
>> multiplying it times the pilots age.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
>> gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>>
>> Pat,
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree, it adds another element of competition and all it takes is a little
>> more reporting. I see no reason not to do it, you should write up the idea
>> and send it to Rex to publish in the K-Factor! Other districts may want to
>> try the same thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com>
>> harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Gordon,
>>
>> Actually Mike's idea has a lot of merit as well. By including all ages, it
>> creates a contest within a contest. Besides, It's the only way I'll ever be
>> able to beat Alex! For most of the year, Dick flying Sportsman by himself,
>> would of had a chance to beat guys in all other classes, Pretty interesting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
>> gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat,
>>
>>
>>
>> This would be pretty easy to do. I think I can easily add this to the
>> existing program. I will work on this and have it ready for next season, its
>> basically just a reporting issue, the only new data I need is age.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cool idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com>
>> harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> At the Richland contest, I discussed with a few attendees, the possibility
>> of introducing a Seniors Division into our events such as IMAC does.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some of you may be aware of a gentleman by the name of Ron Smith (AKA
>> Captain Kaos). Ron has been around the pattern scene for many years (thus
>> the AKA name). Ron was instrumental in working with IMAC to set up the
>> current Seniors Division, first introduced a few years ago in the IMAC
>> Pacific Northwest District. IMAC has now rolled out this program on a
>> nationwide basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been in contact with Ron and he is excited at the possibility of
>> introducing a similar program into Pattern. Ron has stressed he will be of
>> help in any way he can.
>>
>>
>>
>> The mechanics of this program are very straight forward. First off, IMAC
>> uses age 55 or older as their cutoff (I think that pretty much includes all
>> of us). In a nutshell, what they do is use the "percentage of possible
>> points" per round compared to all other competitors' scores. By doing this,
>> you are competing with all other contestants, regardless of their class. So
>> in other words, if a Sportsman flew a round and received 75% of the total
>> points available for that class, he would finish higher versus a Master's
>> pilot scoring 74% of the total points available.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gordon's spreadsheet is already calculating a "percentage of points", so I
>> trust it would not be too difficult to integrate it into our system.
>>
>>
>>
>> Following is the info off the IMAC web site that should clear up any
>> confusion I may have created:
>>
>>
>>
>> Starting in 2009, we are introducing the "IMAC Senior Points Series". This
>> series is open to any IMAC member who competes in any IMAC Regional Points
>> Series (IRPS) contest, in the Sportsman thru Unlimited class and is
>> fortunate enough to be 55 years of age or older at the start of any IRPS
>> contest. (Sorry kids, you will just have to wait a few more years.) This
>> series, held in the NW region since 2004, has been a great success and is
>> now expanding to all IMAC regions.
>>
>> At each contest throughout the flying season, the Senior Competition is held
>> in conjunction with your normal IMAC class. Scores are based on the pilots
>> percentage achieved against the maximum possible raw score for their class.
>> You are flying against other Senior pilots in Sportsman thru Unlimited
>> classes.
>>
>> For example, the 2009 Sportsman sequence has a total of 2,210 points
>> available per judge per sequence; with 2 judges this equals 4,420 points. If
>> the pilot's raw score is 3,536 points that is 80.00% of the available
>> points. If an Unlimited Senior pilot scores 75.00% of his available points,
>> the sportsman pilot wins that particular sequence. These percentage scores
>> are calculated in the scoring program automatically and normalized against
>> all other Senior pilots by round. Standard formats for throw-out sequences
>> and normalizing are still the same.
>>
>> There are no additional fees, sequences, or rounds flown and you are still
>> competing in your normal IMAC class. All points, placements and/or trophies
>> you earn for your class are still awarded. The host club has the option to
>> award a 1st place Senior award if they choose, but it is not mandatory.
>>
>> Entering the Senior Competition is the eligible pilot's choice and is not
>> mandatory, however, if you decline to join, your points are not
>> retroactively applied later in the year. Once you join then the region will
>> keep your scores for the year.
>>
>> At the end of the regular season in each region and just like the regular
>> Regional Points Series, the Senior Points Series winners for the season will
>> be awarded first through third place based on their top five contests
>> (normalized - as in the regular class regional points standings and ties
>> will be settled in the same manner).
>>
>> Pat Harris _______________________________________________
>>
>>
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