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<div>Thanks Steve</div>
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<div>I probably mixed up part of what you were saying about Masters judging with the FAI proposal. I agree, Masters should be it's own thread to avoid confusing people (like me).</div>
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<div>Don<br>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Steve Hannah <shannah1806@gmail.com><br>
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT <nsrca-dist7@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Cc: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT <nsrca-dist7@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Mon, Mar 15, 2010 2:55 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level<br>
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<div>I shouldn't have mixed the topic of judging and flying F. They are different and unrelated. But I am not asking to shorten masters to satisfy FAI. I am asking to do that for the sake of anyone who sits in the judges chair. I like that a and b idea. That could really help. Maybe this should be it's own thread. </div>
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<div>I still think we should offer F. I'd rather see it mandatory but that isn't what the proposal offers. So in order to move onward I'll support whatever proposal we adopt to include it in someway. In the spirit of consensus, I don't really like the proposal but I can live with it. </div>
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On Mar 16, 2010, at 3:15 AM, Chris Fitzsimmons <<A href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<br>
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<div>Are you saying to shorten the masters sequnce if too many guys show up in masters? I don't see how making masters change to satisfy fai that is shrinking because of difficulty. How fair is that? Hopefully I perceived your comment incorrect. </div>
<div>Pattern was fun a few years ago. Im not quite having the same amount of fun lately it seems. With this issue we have people moving back to masters or saying they will. Where does the issue lay? In masters or fai? If people want to fly f, it will most likely make sure at all contests that all fai pilots will get a trophy. Is that what people want? I'd rather fly against 10+ masters guys than 2 fai. Would the fai pilots rather fly against 10 guys flying p, or maybe 1 or 2 flying p and f? Cuz I could take a guess that that is what would happen.</div>
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<div>Just my opinion I guess. </div>
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On Mar 15, 2010, at 6:34 AM, Steve Hannah <<A href="mailto:shannah1806@gmail.com"><A href="mailto:shannah1806@gmail.com">shannah1806@gmail.com</A></A>> wrote:<br>
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<div>I support your idea to split the class. I'd rather do two short stints vs one monster long one. Talk about things that can drive FAI flyers away, that long sequence and marathon judging sessions is about ready to do it to me. I think the CD should mandate a shortened sequence any time there are more than 5 fliers. Plus you should split the line if more than 8 show up. </div>
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<div>As for FAI F: I don't support the pilots option or CD option. The current proposal is effectively doing nothing beyond what we have right now. Either we do it or we don't. If I have the choice to optionally throw away two rounds then I'll probably opt to not do that and fly P. If I have 4 solid rounds and my choice is to drive home early or fly F then I might fly F even though it wouldn't have any bearing on the outcome. </div>
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<div>Pilots already fly F on the P score sheets. I'd hope that we could introduce an F seuence somehow but the voluntary optional thing doesn't work for me. I can do that now but the results don't mean anything. So I'll fly P until further notice.</div>
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<div>Do it or don't do it. </div>
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<div>Steve <br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
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On Mar 15, 2010, at 10:20 AM, "Wallace, Bill" <<A href="mailto:WallaceBill@bfusa.com"></A><A href="mailto:WallaceBill@bfusa.com"><A href="mailto:WallaceBill@bfusa.com">WallaceBill@bfusa.com</A></A>> wrote:<br>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Tony:</SPAN></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My take on this is that we are not going to dictate to the CD’s hoe to run their contest. John has suggested that if the FAI flyers want to fly the F sequence, then the CD can run the last 2 rounds as either F or P to be decided by the pilot. If he decides to fly the F then he will be scored at the P schedule K factors. In my opinion, this is a fair way to run it, and is how I am going to run the Hemet contest. If the FAI pilots don’t like this, then they should speak up now or don’t gripe about it come contest day. Let’s face it, we are never going to make everyone happy, but this proposal does the best job of it – again in my never to be humble opinion. Since Jon proposed this, and I think he will be running the Dist. Championships, then I think we can assume that this is how they will be run. Again, if you are a FAI pilot and you don’t like this suggestion, speak up now. Now Jon – if I am wrong on this let me know. A more pressing problem, IMO, is the heavily loaded Masters class we have in Dist. 7. At Yuma – half of the registered pilots were in Masters (8). If we have a good size contest (ie Riverside or Hemet) we could have 12 – 15 Masters pilots. This will create havoc for the CD and the poor FAI and Advanced pilots who have to sit in the chair for 2 – 2 ½ hours. My thoughts are to split the class if the number gets over 10 and have the same judges for 2 rounds, but they would only have to judge ½ the pilots each round. Then we would hold off normalizing until the end of the 2nd round. I am thinking this would make the judging a little more tolerable. Looking for comments and or other suggestions. Thanks. </SPAN></div>
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<div style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Bill Wallace</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> <br>
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</SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Cell Phone - 951-385-2605</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> <br>
</SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Fax number - 615-493-2333</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. It may contain privileged, confidential information which is exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are prohibited from disseminating or distributing this information (other than to the intended recipient) or copying this information. If you have received this in error, please notify me immediately at <A href="mailto:bwallace@bandag.com"></A><A href="mailto:bwallace@bandag.com"><A href="mailto:bwallace@bandag.com">bwallace@bandag.com</A></A> or at 951-385-2605. Thank you.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Frackowiak<br>
<B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:17 PM<br>
<B>To:</B> CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT<br>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>Hi Jon,</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>Somehow this slipped through on my email, so I'm just responding now.</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>With all due respect (whenever I say that I think of Ricky Bobby!) I don't see why there can't be some sort of approval by the majority of the F3A fliers. A simple yes/no and posting the results would suffice. Without that, it looks like just one guys ideas being pressed forward.</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the entire idea of this discussion was to come to an agreement amongst all the F3A pilots on what to do in this district? If you leave it up to the individual CD's, will the D7 Championships be decided by that CD?</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Jon Carter wrote:</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Tony – There is no real “official” process per se to vote on this proposal. As I said, I believe that this is a first “doable” step in a process and unless I hear some strong objections from some FAI pilots my intention is to forward my proposal to each CD who is running a D7 contest with my recommendation to implement it if possible for their contest. Please keep in mind that this decision is ultimately the CD’s of the individual events.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Jon Carter</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=apple-converted-space><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A><SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[<A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>]<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B>On Behalf Of<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></B>Anthony Frackowiak<br>
<B>Sent:</B><SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:08 AM<br>
<B>To:</B><SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT<br>
<B>Subject:</B><SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I will have no problem supporting this if this what the majority of the F3A pilots have agreed upon. Is there a process to come to a majority agreement?</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Jon Carter wrote:</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Local contests and FAI: A modest Proposal.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">As I have indicated on the D7 list and in e-mails to most of the D7 FAI pilots I think that we need to come to a decision/recommendation for the FAI class at local contests as soon as possible. At this point I have spoken with almost every D7 pilot who flew in an FAI contest during the 2009 season. I would like to begin by stating some facts, some assumptions and some goals.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Facts:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">The 2010 contest season started in<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Phoenix<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>on 11/14/2009 and we are 3 contests into the season.</SPAN></LI>
<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Since we have already begun the season, I do not support adding “F” as a required element at the D7 Championships for the 2010 season.</SPAN></LI>
<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">There are strong opinions on both sides of this issue.</SPAN></LI>
<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Adding the “F” schedule at local contests is a significant change to the way we have “traditionally” flown FAI.</SPAN></LI>
<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">It is up to each individual CD to structure and run his contest in a manner that follows the rules and satisfies the needs of his club and his pilots.</SPAN></LI></UL>
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<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Most D7 FAI pilots support an option to assist the pilots who go to the Nats by providing them with a way to fly judged “F” sequences.</SPAN></LI>
<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Many D7 FAI pilots think that flying the “F’ sequence at local contests would be fun, challenging and a way to more fully align ourselves with what it means to fly “FAI”</SPAN></LI>
<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">There will be a significant “learning” curve in judging the “F” sequence.</SPAN></LI></UL>
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<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Arrive at a set of guidelines for the 2010 season that will give an event CD a framework for running the FAI class<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><U>this</U><SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>year and allow pilots who choose to, the ability to fly “F” and receive scores.</SPAN></LI>
<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Provide a path that will allow us to offer the “F” sequence at local contests and the District Championships in 2011 and going forward<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><U>if so desired</U>.</SPAN></LI>
<LI style="COLOR: black; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">If we make changes, ensure that a process of review is completed to determine the positive or negative impact of the changes after the season</SPAN></LI></UL>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">Any FAI pilot who wants to may fly two rounds of F at a local contest, with the CD’s permission. To simplify things for the CD I think that this should be limited to the last two rounds on Sunday. If the CD is willing to permit this, it must be mentioned as far in advance as possible. (On the website and in the contest flyer at the minimum) If the CD does not want to fly the “F” sequence, or no pilots want to, FAI will be flown as usual with a best 4 out of 6 “P” sequences.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">The F schedule scores will simply be entered into the computer as a P schedule. This will apply the “P” K-Factors to the “F” sequence. This is obviously a “handicap” for the pilots who choose to fly the “F” sequence (~17%). It does though allow them to fly the “F” sequence in front of judges and receive scores that they can review for areas that need improvement.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">All other scoring, i.e. count the best 4 out of 6 rounds, will be kept as is.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">The District Championship will be flown as a Schedule “P” contest only. As I mentioned up above, we are 3 contests into the 2010 season and I do not think that it is proper to make a change of this magnitude for the District Championships at this time.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">I believe that we should observe these changes and their impact on our local FAI contests for the remainder of this season. If they appear to be positive and the majority of the FAI flyers like them we could make another step next year. If the idea has strong local FAI pilot support, I would support making our local FAI contests a best 3 out of 4 “P” and a best 1 out of 2 “F” for 2011. Please keep in mind that by trying something different this year we are not committing ourselves to any changes for next year. If we adopt this proposal we have most of a year for pilots to see “F” flown locally and for the rest of us to learn how to judge it! Remember our goal is to compete, improve our piloting skills and have fun!</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ">NSRCA D7 VP</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-dist7 mailing list<br>
<A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org</A></A><br>
<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank></A><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank></A><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7</A></A><br>
<br>
<br>
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
Checked by AVG -<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank></A><A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank></A><A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank><A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>www.avg.com</A></A><br>
Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/10/10 11:33:00</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN></div>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: ; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-dist7 mailing list<br>
<A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org</A></A><br>
<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank></A><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank></A><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7</A></A><br>
<br>
</SPAN></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<div><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><br>
<SPAN>NSRCA-dist7 mailing list</SPAN><br>
<SPAN><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org"></A><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org</A></A></SPAN><br>
<SPAN><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank></A><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7</A></A></SPAN><br>
</div>
</BLOCKQUOTE></div>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<div><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><br>
<SPAN>NSRCA-dist7 mailing list</SPAN><br>
<SPAN><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org</A></A></SPAN><br>
<SPAN><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7</A></A></SPAN><br>
</div>
</BLOCKQUOTE><br>
</div>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<div><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><br>
<SPAN>NSRCA-dist7 mailing list</SPAN><br>
<SPAN><A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org</A></SPAN><br>
<SPAN><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7</A></SPAN><br>
</div>
</BLOCKQUOTE>= </div>
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<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; MARGIN: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12px" id=AOLMsgPart_4_af82c8a9-3348-4040-a223-f093a4839af4><PRE style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT>_______________________________________________
NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
<A href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7</A>
</TT></PRE></div>
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