[NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
Frackowiak Tony
frackowiak at sbcglobal.net
Tue May 3 19:36:58 AKDT 2016
I thank John Gayer for his input. It solves the issue of not penalizing all the contestants at one AMA sanctioned pattern contest. I disagree with 2). I think there are plenty of other contests available to that person that nothing needs to be said about it. It would not be financial hardship because he does not have to go to any more contests then anyone else. And I don't see how scheduling can become an issue. Your setting it up so that if the person banned from one contest in the district wins 3 events he can just claim hardship or scheduling and not bother to try to go to a 4th and just take the points given to him by 2). I see it as unnecessary.
I cannot try to read John Bentley's mind to comment on intent. I can only comment on the result. His proposal could potentially punish a club that has done everything within the AMA regulations correctly.
Now for the question, would a club be eliminated from potentially hosting the NSRCA D7 Championship Event because they have properly followed their Bylaws and are within all the requirements of a Chartered AMA Club?
As to the AMA, you may have more experience. I suppose the BMF could tell the AMA that a policy imposed by an NSRCA DVP unfairly harmed their properly AMA sanctioned and run event because it may have reduced the entrant count. Hard to prove but also hard to deny.
Tony Frackowiak
On May 3, 2016, at 3:44 PM, John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
> John, Thank you for a voice of reason, all I have ever wanted is a fair and
> equitable solution to a problem .Now will this work for everyone?
> John
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Mon, 02 May 2016 10:29:10 PM MST
> From: John Gayer via NSRCA-dist7 <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> To: "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
>
> As an annual participant in District 7 contests but not a district 7
> resident, I offer the following suggestion.
>
> 1. It seems clear that any club has the right to ban an individual from
> setting foot on the club premises. That does assume that the club has
> the right to banish anyone. There are cases of clubs on publicly owned
> land where that is not true.
>
> 2. It is also clear that the NSRCA has the duty to set up a fair and
> equitable means of determining district championships as best they can
> for their membership. The National has delegated this responsibility to
> the DVPs.
>
> I suggest the DVP change the point accumulation rules to include the
> following:
>
> 1) All AMA sanctioned club results will be included in the points
> calculations
>
> 2) If a member in good standing with the AMA and the NSRCA is
> banned from attending a qualified contest the following applies.
>
> If the banned member in good standing cannot attend a replacement
> contest due to scheduling or financial hardship in order to meet the
> maximum allowable contest results under the rules, then his points for
> that missing contest will be the average of the contests he did attend.
>
>
>
> I don't see John's position as an attempt to "punish" a club. I'd be
> willing to bet most of the attendees attend more contests than the
> limit. Certainly the many out of district contestants don't care about
> the status of the district points. Hold a great contest and they will
> all come (and they have).
>
> I'm sure the AMA would just look at the fact that the NSRCA did nothing
> to prevent a contest being held or to invalidate the results obtained
> and say "What's the problem?"
>
> John Gayer
>
> On 5/2/2016 9:26 PM, Chris Fitzsimmons via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
>> NSRCA district points can not be issued by a flying field club.. Only
>> by an NSRCA event where all can fly..
>>
>> C
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 2, 2016, at 7:55 PM, JAMIE SCHOOLCRAFT via NSRCA-dist7
>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>
>>> WELL SAID STEVE!!!!
>>>
>>> Take Care,
>>> Jamie
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On May 2, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Steven Lampert via NSRCA-dist7
>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My problem with John’s position is that if a club, in accordance
>>>> with its bylaws, acts to expel or ban an individual, then the NRCA’s
>>>> decision to invalidate the points from an event hosted by that club
>>>> effectively penalizes the club for taking action against such an
>>>> individual. The club is thus left with the unpalatable options of
>>>> either tolerating the presence of this individual, or having their
>>>> contest effectively marginalized and transformed into a glorified
>>>> fun fly.
>>>>
>>>> I really don’t question the authority of the NSRCA to exclude such a
>>>> club from hosting an event that is conducted under the auspices of
>>>> the NSRCA. However , within the context of a club sponsored event,
>>>> I think the NSRCA may be exceeding the legitimate bounds of its
>>>> authority by effectively punishing a club in this manner.
>>>>
>>>> What I can’t seem to determine is what is the legitimate scope and
>>>> source of the NSRCA’s authority in this regard…
>>>>
>>>> *From:*NSRCA-dist7 [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On
>>>> Behalf Of *Peter Vogel via NSRCA-dist7
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2016 2:11 PM
>>>> *To:* Chris Fitzsimmons; CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
>>>>
>>>> +1. Well said Chris!
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Chris Fitzsimmons via NSRCA-dist7
>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> No one is really missing out on any points or contest. Let's not
>>>> forget the BMF contest was not even a contest till like a week ago.
>>>> The guys up north are actually the main people missing out on a
>>>> contest. Hence why the Fresno came in to replace it. And then BMF..
>>>> Great to have two step up.
>>>>
>>>> The issue is the club isn't in charge of district points, they are
>>>> (as Robert has pointed out) in charge of their affairs. And that's
>>>> correct.. To me and most others it seems, NSRCA points are not BMFs
>>>> affair. That belongs to the NSRCA. The NSRCA is an organization
>>>> right? If we don't pay them we can't get district points right?
>>>> Where is that confusing anyone?
>>>>
>>>> I fully understand BMF and their decision. I could care less who
>>>> they ban... It's about district points and why it is or isn't fair.
>>>> It's not rocket science and perhaps you should put the shoe on the
>>>> other foot also. I tried it on.. I returned it to the rightful owner
>>>> after thinking about it carefully from the other side.
>>>>
>>>> (Drops microphone) I'm out ✌️
>>>>
>>>> Just kidding. Lighten up ffs.. This is a hobby...
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Frackowiak Tony via NSRCA-dist7
>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So, with the retaining of the requirement for 4 contests for the
>>>> Champs, and the elimination of points from the upcoming BMF
>>>> contest, which was just to try to help out after your contest
>>>> was cancelled, plus no points for all BMF contests in the
>>>> future, it will now be even harder for people of more limited
>>>> means to compete for the District Champs. How does that make it
>>>> a "level playing field" for them?
>>>>
>>>> I guess it's no problem when you have the means to go to all the
>>>> events you want, along with the Nats each year. Not only
>>>> financially but when you can always travel in a group sharing
>>>> the load. Not often the case when you're just getting in to
>>>> pattern. I'm also lucky to have good friends that help me attend
>>>> contests. Otherwise I could only go to contests that I run or I
>>>> can return home easily to stay the night.
>>>>
>>>> And people wonder why the entrant counts at our contests
>>>> continue to dwindle. Or why there are 19 Masters in a 35 entrant
>>>> contest.
>>>>
>>>> Still waiting for my return call, Jon.
>>>>
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 8:24 AM, joncarter60 via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also am in agreement with Dale's points. It is simply about
>>>> having a "level playing field" for the district championship.
>>>>
>>>> Jon Carter
>>>>
>>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6 edge, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>
>>>> From: Budd Engineering via NSRCA-dist7
>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>>
>>>> Date: 5/2/2016 8:15 AM (GMT-08:00)
>>>>
>>>> To: Olstinske Dale <sanjosedale at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:sanjosedale at gmail.com>>, "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT"
>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Olstinske Dale via NSRCA-dist7
>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I love the BMF contests, one of the highlights of the year. I
>>>> would always attend in any event, but I support John’s decision
>>>> about district championship points. I really doubt the
>>>> attendance would be hurt in anyway, just my opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 1, 2016, at 4:20 PM, John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7
>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is NOT an attack on the Bear Mountain Club/Tony/Leon,
>>>> (read my original
>>>>>> post) It is a statement of policy, in that every and ALL
>>>> members of the
>>>>>> NSRCA and AMA should be able to compete in the district
>>>> championships. Did
>>>>>> anyone actually read my proposal???? . There should for
>>>> pilots with the
>>>>>> exception of legal actions due to NSRCA or AMA never be an
>>>> exclusion to this
>>>>>> policy.
>>>>>> I have never said that anyone could not have a contest,
>>>> however for that
>>>>>> contest to be valid there can be no exclusions of pilots that
>>>> are in good
>>>>>> standing with AMA and NSRCA There will be NO more personal
>>>> attacks nor more
>>>>>> personal vendettas. This is only about out district policy
>>>> and nothing else.
>>>>>> John Bentley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 30 Apr 2016 04:58:39 PM MST
>>>>>> From: John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7
>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>>>> To: <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All NSRCA D7 Members. It has come to my attention that
>>>> members in good
>>>>>> standing with AMA and NSRCA are unable to fly at a contest
>>>> site. Because of
>>>>>> this, from this point no district championship points will
>>>> be assigned at
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> contest that excludes a member that is in good standing with
>>>> AMA and NSRCA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now on the discussion about the Championship. The overall
>>>> consensus is that
>>>>>> there should be a single Championship and that Championship
>>>> should move to
>>>>>> different sites within D7. In all fairness since 4 contests
>>>> have been flown
>>>>>> there will be no change in how points are determined for the
>>>> 2016 contest
>>>>>> season.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have heard lots of talk on how the points are awarded .
>>>> Here is my thought
>>>>>> in how the contest(S) could be more competitive:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Use 3 contests for qualification. Each pilot will be
>>>> awarded 33 points for
>>>>>> attendance plus 1 point for each person they beat in the contest.
>>>>>> One contest can be used from out of district however that
>>>> contest can not
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> any points given that is larger than the largest D7 contest
>>>> attended.As an
>>>>>> example if a pilot attended the NATS and beat 30 people but
>>>> their largest
>>>>>> class in D7 was 18 they could only be awarded 18 points extra
>>>> not 30.
>>>>>> 2. The championship Contest will count as 100 points plus 1
>>>> point for each
>>>>>> person beat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.The method for the calculation will be announced no later
>>>> than Jan 1 2017
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
>>>>
>>>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
>>>>
>>>> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
>>>>
>>>> Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)
>>>>
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