[NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods

Tom Messer nvdreamin at gmail.com
Mon May 2 18:54:54 AKDT 2016 

Agreed

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 2, 2016, at 7:51 PM, John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7 <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> 
> As you have said: 
> 4.1. An eligible flier is one who holds a current membership with the Academy
> of Model Aeronautics
> Enough.
> 
> 
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Mon, 02 May 2016 06:59:49 PM MST
> From: Frackowiak Tony <frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>
> To: John Bentley <j.bentley at usa.net>, "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT"
> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>Cc: Steven Lampert <SLampert at client-tel.net>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
> 
> Nonsense. That is not a CD's authority at all. The CD cannot override any club
> regulations. They are only responsible for conducting the contest as much as
> possible within the AMA rules for the competition event they are conducting.
> And there are no AMA rules that say that the CD must allow any AMA member into
> the contest. Here are the General rules that apply,
> 
> 4.Who May Compete
> Only those holding a current membership with the Academy of Model Aeronautics
> may compete in sanctioned competition as outlined above. The Contest Director
> or his representative shall verify the AMA Membership of each contestant to
> determine the contestant’s eligibility to compete.
> 
> 4.1. An eligible flier is one who holds a current membership with the Academy
> of Model Aeronautics.
> 
> Please note that these rules say only those who MAY compete are those with a
> current AMA membership. Nowhere in the AMA General rules does it say the CD
> MUST allow any AMA member to compete in the contest.
> 
> Also, a CD does not supersede any other regulations, or for that matter, any
> other positions of authority that may be held within a club. For instance, if
> the CD was improperly running the contest from the point of safety, the Club's
> Safety Officer could take over and ensure the safety of the event. As a long
> time CD and over 14 years as a Club Officer in the position of President,
> Vice-President, Treasurer and Safety Officer and an AMA Leader Member in 3
> Categories I am familiar with these regulations. Let me familiarize you with
> this one,
> 
> 17. Disqualification/Exclusion
> Contestants may be disqualified or excluded from any or all events if guilty
> of an infraction of contest rules, unsportsmanlike or discourteous conduct,
> infraction of good safety practice or procedure, or conduct detrimental to the
> well-being of model aviation. If, after entry in an event, a contestant is
> found to be ineligible to compete in that event, all of the contestant’s
> flights in that event are to be canceled and any awards won in that event
> returned. If judged guilty of willful misconduct, the contestant shall lose
> all claims to awards, and shall be liable to expulsion from the contest site.
> Repeated or particularly vicious acts of willful misconduct may result in
> suspension or revocation of the contestant’s model flier’s sporting
> license or in expulsion of the contestant from membership in the AMA. If
> action is taken to suspend the contestant’s model flier’s sporting
> license, the contestant shall have 14 days after notification in which to
> present in writing why such action should not be taken. Any action taken to
> revoke a contestant’s model flier’s sporting license or to expel the
> contestant from membership in the AMA shall be taken in accordance with the
> notification and hearing procedures set forth in Article V. Section 3 of the
> AMA Bylaws.
> 
> Please quote the regulations in the AMA Competition Rules that support your
> viewpoint.
> 
> We may have been able to avoid reaching this point if you had returned my
> calls in a timely manner or when you did call me you did not do so in anger,
> using profanity and hanging up on me.
> 
> Tony Frackowiak
> 
>> On May 2, 2016, at 6:30 PM, John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
>> 
>> Here are some  thoughts:
>> When a CD runs a contest then he/she is responsible for all aspects of the
>> contest, safety, pilot conduct, etc. Basically the CD takes over the field
> and
>> is entrusted by the club to manage the event. The CD should, at the pilots
>> meeting, define expectation and make it clear that un-sportsman like
> conduct
>> will result in expulsion from the event. If the club has banned a pilot
> then
>> that pilot would not be able to practice during open field time when the CD
> is
>> not in charge but when the active contest is running the CD can and should
>> allow any AMA pilot to fly so long as the CD’s expectation are met. If
> the
>> pilot violates the rules during the event then the CD has the duty to take
>> action. 
>> 
>> A particular clubs challenges that result in pilot’s being banned should
> not
>> interfere the the pilot’s ability to compete regionally or nationally.
> Clubs
>> always have the option of not holding pattern contests if they intent to
>> guarantee the banned will pilot never fly at the field. When you hold a
>> contest you open the field to pilots from all over the country and the
> world,
>> you never know what you will get and you could get a pilot that had been
>> banned from other fields perhaps for even more egregious reasons. 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> Received: Mon, 02 May 2016 06:10:44 PM MST
>> From: Steven Lampert via NSRCA-dist7 <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> To: "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
>> 
>> My problem with John’s position is that if a club, in accordance with its
>> bylaws, acts to expel or ban an individual, then the NRCA’s decision to
>> invalidate the points from an event hosted by that club effectively
> penalizes
>> the club for taking action against such an individual.  The club is thus
> left
>> with the unpalatable options of either tolerating the presence of this
>> individual, or having their contest effectively marginalized and
> transformed
>> into a glorified fun fly.
>> I really don’t question the authority of the NSRCA to exclude such a club
>> from hosting an event that is conducted under the auspices of the NSRCA. 
>> However , within the context of a club sponsored event, I think the NSRCA
> may
>> be exceeding the legitimate bounds of its authority by effectively punishing
> a
>> club in this manner.
>> 
>> What I can’t seem to determine is what is the legitimate scope and source
> of
>> the NSRCA’s authority in this regard…
>> 
>> 
>> From: NSRCA-dist7 [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> Peter Vogel via NSRCA-dist7
>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 2:11 PM
>> To: Chris Fitzsimmons; CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
>> 
>> +1.  Well said Chris!
>> 
>> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Chris Fitzsimmons via NSRCA-dist7
>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>> No one is really missing out on any points or contest. Let's not forget the
>> BMF contest was not even a contest till like a week ago. The guys up north
> are
>> actually the main people missing out on a contest. Hence why the Fresno
> came
>> in to replace it. And then BMF.. Great to have two step up.
>> 
>> The issue is the club isn't in charge of district points, they are (as
> Robert
>> has pointed out) in charge of their affairs. And that's correct.. To me and
>> most others it seems, NSRCA points are not BMFs affair. That belongs to the
>> NSRCA.  The NSRCA is an organization right? If we don't pay them we can't
> get
>> district points right? Where is that confusing anyone?
>> 
>> I fully understand BMF and their decision. I could care less who they
> ban...
>> It's about district points and why it is or isn't fair.  It's not rocket
>> science and perhaps you should put the shoe on the other foot also. I tried
> it
>> on.. I returned it to the rightful owner after thinking about it carefully
>> from the other side.
>> 
>> (Drops microphone) I'm out ✌️
>> 
>> Just kidding. Lighten up ffs.. This is a hobby...
>> 
>> Chris
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On May 2, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Frackowiak Tony via NSRCA-dist7
>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>> So, with the retaining of the requirement for 4 contests for the Champs,
> and
>> the elimination of points from the upcoming BMF contest, which was just to
> try
>> to help out after your contest was cancelled, plus no points for all BMF
>> contests in the future, it will now be even harder for people of more
> limited
>> means to compete for the District Champs. How does that make it a "level
>> playing field" for them?
>> 
>> I guess it's no problem when you have the means to go to all the events you
>> want, along with the Nats each year. Not only financially but when you can
>> always travel in a group sharing the load. Not often the case when you're
> just
>> getting in to pattern. I'm also lucky to have good friends that help me
> attend
>> contests. Otherwise I could only go to contests that I run or I can return
>> home easily to stay the night.
>> 
>> And people wonder why the entrant counts at our contests continue to
> dwindle.
>> Or why there are 19 Masters in a 35 entrant contest.
>> 
>> Still waiting for my return call, Jon.
>> 
>> Tony
>> 
>> On May 2, 2016, at 8:24 AM, joncarter60 via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I also am in agreement with Dale's points. It is simply about having a
> "level
>> playing field" for the district championship.
>> 
>> Jon Carter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6 edge, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Budd Engineering via NSRCA-dist7
>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>> Date: 5/2/2016 8:15 AM (GMT-08:00)
>> To: Olstinske Dale <sanjosedale at gmail.com<mailto:sanjosedale at gmail.com>>,
> "CA,
>> AZ, HI, NV, UT"
>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
>> 
>> +1
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Olstinske Dale via NSRCA-dist7
>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I love the BMF contests, one of the highlights of the year. I would always
>> attend in any event, but I support John’s decision about district
>> championship points. I really doubt the attendance would be hurt in anyway,
>> just my opinion.
>>> 
>>> Dale
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 1, 2016, at 4:20 PM, John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7
>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> This is NOT an attack on the Bear Mountain Club/Tony/Leon, (read my
>> original
>>>> post)  It is a statement of policy, in that  every  and ALL members of
> the
>>>> NSRCA and AMA should be able to compete in the district championships.
>> Did
>>>> anyone actually read my proposal???? . There should for pilots with the
>>>> exception of legal actions due to NSRCA or AMA never be an exclusion to
>> this
>>>> policy.
>>>> I have never said that anyone could not have a contest, however for that
>>>> contest to be valid there can be no exclusions of pilots that are in good
>>>> standing with AMA and NSRCA  There will be NO more personal attacks  nor
>> more
>>>> personal vendettas.  This is only about out district policy and nothing
>> else.
>>>> John Bentley
>>>> 
>>>> 30 Apr 2016 04:58:39 PM MST
>>>> From: John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7
>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>> To: <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
>>>> 
>>>> All NSRCA D7 Members. It has come to my attention that members in good
>>>> standing with AMA and NSRCA are unable to fly at a contest site. Because
>> of
>>>> this, from this point  no district championship points will be assigned
> at
>>>> any
>>>> contest that excludes a member that is in good standing with AMA and
>> NSRCA.
>>>> 
>>>> Now on the discussion about the Championship. The overall consensus is
>> that
>>>> there should be a single Championship and that Championship should move
> to
>>>> different sites within D7. In all fairness  since 4 contests have been
>> flown
>>>> there will be no change in how points are determined for the 2016 contest
>>>> season.
>>>> 
>>>> I have heard lots of talk on how the points are awarded . Here is my
>> thought
>>>> in how the contest(S) could be more competitive:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Use 3 contests for qualification. Each pilot will be awarded 33 points
>> for
>>>> attendance plus 1 point for each person they beat in the contest.
>>>> One contest can be used from out of district however that contest can not
>>>> have
>>>> any points given that is larger than the largest D7 contest attended.As
> an
>>>> example if a pilot attended the NATS and beat 30 people but their largest
>>>> class in D7 was 18 they could only be awarded 18 points extra not 30.
>>>> 2. The championship Contest will  count as 100 points plus 1 point for
>> each
>>>> person beat.
>>>> 
>>>> 3.The method for the calculation will be announced no later than Jan 1
>> 2017
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
>> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
>> Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)
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