[NSRCA-dist7] FAI in D7

Sat Jan 7 05:26:50 AKST 2012

OK, I will chime in.  First, as you will recall, for the 2010 season I 
supported the idea to allow those that wanted to fly F at local 
contests using the P score sheets.  This was to help FAI flyers wanting 
to attend the Nats to gain experience in front of the judges in a 
competitive environment.  At the time I felt it was an appropriate move 
to make to help our District 7 pilots.  We went thru that year with few 
problems other than some of the FAI pilots being concerned where this 
was going to lead.  In 2011, we took the next logical step with 
including F in the contests being the norm instead of the exception. 
And as expected, we did loose FAI pilots because they did not want to 
fly F.  That was their choice and they took it.  That choice did lead 
to additional Masters pilots and in some cases reduced participation.  
Not all the reduced participation can be attributed to the change in 
how we run FAI competition but a lot of it is.  What we did in 2010 was 
done with good intentions, however, in hind sight I believe it was a 
tactical error for our District.
I have read all the discussion here as well as having numerous offline 
conversations with Masters and FAI pilots here in northern California.  
I have heard about the philosophy of FAI/F3A competition, the 
additional demands for preparation, etc.  It breaks down pretty simply. 
 Those that are keen on full blown competition want F (and more) at all 
contests, those that are interested in flying FAI in a more casual mode 
do not want anything more than P.  Those that fall in the latter group 
basically won't fly FAI if F is required, I don't recall any exception 
to that in my conversations.
Jon outlined our problem with an overload in Masters and the problems 
it causes for CDs, judging time, and he offered some options.  The 
responses I have read seem to focus more on 'what I want' as opposed to 
'what is best for the District'.  Personally, I will go with what ever 
the District decides. I don't have much interest in flying F, but I am 
not going to move to Masters if that happens.  I also believe for the 
benefit of the District we should return to the 2010 approach to allow 
those that desire it to fly F in preparation for the Nats but the 
competition is based on the P schedule.  No requirement or expectation 
of F participation.
At some point soon, we need to decide how to approach this year.  I 
agree with Tony that a consistent approach is better so people know how 
to prepare for the season but as always, the CD has the final say as to 
what will included in the contest.  Also, I think we need to 
consciously maintain an environment that supports attendance at 
contests.  If you have ever been in service oriented business you have 
probably heard the saying 'it is much easier to keep a customer than it 
is to find a new a customer'.  Pattern is much the same, we need to 
focus on keeping the flyers we have because it is getting to be harder 
and harder to find new pattern flyers.  So, long winded reply but would 
ask everyone to consider what is best for our District when voting or 
whatever way we decide the approach for this year. 
Don 

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Fitzsimmons <kfactoreditor at gmail.com>
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT, HI, NV, UT <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wed, Jan 4, 2012 11:10 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI in D7

Even in Classic pattern we would be top heavy. No different IMO.

I would contact Mike Mueller Jon. He may be able to help ya with what D5 did. Or John Konneker or Bob Satalino.. 

C

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Jon Carter <joncarter60 at comcast.net> wrote:

Tony - It seems like there is more interest in splitting Masters than doing
anything with FAI! I will look in the K-Factor to see what has been done in
Illinois in regards to large masters' class attendance. We can see if they
have a work-able solution.

In terms of national issues and larger "pattern" related issues I am just
trying to discuss things that we, as a district, have some measure of
control over. I do not think that we should change sequences or invent our
own at our local level. Unknowns at the District Championships do come under
the category of what we can do. I have discussed them previously with some
of the FAI pilots and have gotten slightly mixed messages. If the majority
of D7 FAI pilots really want to fly an Unknown at the District Championships
I personally don't see a problem with it. Obviously there are some details
about who designs it and how is it scored in terms of the contest that would
need to be worked out. Anyway, we can discuss that separately.

As I indicated in another thread about this topic every CD has the freedom
to run his own event to the rules as he sees them. I will make a decision
about how the Hollister contest and the 2012 District Championships will be
run. Each individual CD will do likewise.

Also as you pointed out this is a possible scenario. Maybe 2012 will be
different and we won't have an issue. As you and Robert pointed out this
would not be such a potential problem if we were not so "top-heavy". That is
certainly true but is again somewhat beyond the scope of this discussion.

Perhaps we should all just go back and fly Classic Pattern and we can spread
out across all of the classes more evenly!!! (We'd probably have more fun!)

Thanks for the input and thoughts,

Jon Carter

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Frackowiak

Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:54 PM
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI in D7

Hi Jon,

What you are proposing with a "silver" F3A and a "gold" F3A is in fact
creating a new class. You're going to be giving away awards for it.
Call it whatever you want, class or event. It's the same thing.

I have seen other districts split the Masters class in to two groups.
The judges then have a break in between judging the two groups. You
can check with the Illinois district for details because that is where
I have seen reports in the K-Factor about it. Peter has been giving
some other possibilities. Also, you have admitted that a lot of this
is about what might happen, not what really has happened regularly yet.

You brought up flying Unknowns at the Districts in your first email so
I was just giving my opinion regarding that possibility. I guess I
shouldn't have. Sorry.

I've gone over the results of 2009 and compared them to 2011. Here are
the pilots who flew in an F3A event in D7 this year under the
situation of flying both P and F.

Matt Kimbro
Jim Kimbro
Steve Hannah
Don Atwood
Bill Sheets
Adrian Wong
Andrew Jesky

Matt Kimbro has stated what he would like to do. I can't speak for the
rest but I would guess since they competed in the P and F format they
would want to continue. But maybe they will chime in.

Here are the pilots who flew in an F3A contest in D7 in 2009 but did
not in 2011. I'm pretty sure Chip and Mark would want to fly F and the
others have expressed the opinion that P and F should continue,

Chip Hyde
Mark Leseberg
Derek Koopowitz
Troy Newman
Chris Fitzsimmons

Bill Wallace has said he is going to fly F3A but only P and will only
offer P at his two contests. That is certainly his right as a CD and I
respect that.

Here are the pilots who flew F3A in 2009 but did not enter either F3A
or Masters in 2011.

Tom Messer
Dave Reaville
Craig Blodgett
Gary McClellan

Again, I can't speak for them so I don't know the reasons why they
have quit entering pattern events in D7. Tom seemed to be having a lot
of fun with helicopters at Fresno but I do know when this subject was
discussed a while back he was not for adding F.

That leaves these four pilots who actually moved to Masters from F3A
since 2009,

Greg Frohreich
Frank Capone
Bob Obregon
Jarvis Johnson

I have not talked to these people about this subject. Jarvis flew both
Advanced and Masters this year, so I don't think he would fly F3A P.
So that leaves three who might fly F3A P only. Maybe we will hear from
them. I hope so because they are what this whole thing is about.

I brought up the problems I see Nationally with the Pattern event as
others did in their emails. I see them as the real problem here,
because if we had more entrants in every class rather then the top
heavy situation we have now this problem would cease to exist. Again,
I guess I shouldn't have. Sorry.

I have CD'd a number of contests so I am completely aware of the
problems with judging. I just don't think your proposal will solve them.

Respectfully,

Tony Frackowiak

On Jan 3, 2012, at 9:25 PM, Jon Carter wrote:

> Comments in line
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony
> Frackowiak
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 5:49 PM
> To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI in D7
>
> Hi,
>
> I have felt before and I still feel that F3A Pilots should be prepared
> to fly both. If not, fly Masters. As a CD I am totally against
> creating classes in this District that are not also National. So I am
> completely against this idea of a "silver" and "gold' F3A classes.
>
> [I don't see this as "creating" a class that is not National. That
> is what
> the proposed Expert class was. This is flying P as an event and
> flying P and
> F as an event.]
>
>
> There are other ways to handle the overload of Masters if that is
> indeed what happens.
>
> [I would love to hear your ideas]
>
> I also feel that our District Championships in
> F3A should include Unknown rounds. How in the world does an F3A pilot
> prepare to fly Unknowns with no competitions including them?
>
> [That is something that we have considered for the districts and
> maybe we
> could get some feedback from our FAI pilots. It's not really
> relevant to
> this discussion.]
>
>
> As to the drop off in F3A pilots, I went back and looked at who was
> flying in 2009, 2010 and 2011. I think that the drop in F3A
> competitors are for a lot of other reasons then just having to fly
> both patterns.
>
> [Well, it's not exhaustive but I know that 4 pilots went to Masters
> from FAI
> when we added F. You might say that 4 is not that big a number but
> when we
> have FAI classes in 2011 with from 0 to 2 pilots I think 4 is
> significant]
>
> I agree with much of what Chris said. The real problem is not F3A or
> Masters. It's Sportsman and Intermediate. If pattern and hence the
> NSRCA does not start to try to do something to increase the interest
> in flying pattern, it really doesn't matter. We are a dying event.
> Making Advanced and Masters more difficult is also not a solution. I'm
> starting to help Jean Greear work on Intermediate. That in itself is a
> huge jump from Sportsman. What will making Advanced more difficult do
> to someone in Intermediate?
>
> The problem that I see in a very big way lately is that the powers to
> be who are controlling the event, and by that I mean the NSRCA and the
> Contest Board, are set in their ways and are apparently happy with the
> status quo. Any significant change that could really help
> participation in pattern gets shot down very quickly. Until this
> changes we need to just be ready for more of the same.
>
> [My raising this point is not to discuss at a National level the
> problems of
> pattern but to possibly try out some creative solutions in our local
> district to make our contests more fun and more competitive]
>
> BTW, I have been flying P-13 and starting to work on F-13. P-13 is  a
> much better pattern then P-11 but it is definitely more difficult then
> the current Masters pattern. F-13 is crazy hard. It will take a big
> commitment to fly F-13 well. But if a current F3A pilot or someone
> thinking of flying F3A can't handle it, then work to get that event
> changed or fly an AMA class.
>
> Tony Frackowiak
>
>
> [Jon Carter]
>
>
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-- 
Chris Fitzsimmons
Team F3A Unlimited
Team Airtronics
Team Thunder Power
08 D7 Masters Champion

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