[NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level
Jon Carter
joncarter60 at comcast.net
Tue Mar 16 20:03:28 AKDT 2010
Jim – That is an interesting idea and might be worth discussing for next
season. We will have to see if any of the FAI pilots take it up.
Jon Carter
_____
From: nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Frackowiak
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:37 PM
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level
That may be the best solution. How about 5 rounds of P and then the top
three fly 2 rounds of F? Final score of the finalists will be the best three
of P and the best F? Sounds like a good start! Might create some real
interest in watching the fly-off.
Tony
On Mar 15, 2010, at 7:46 PM, James Oddino wrote:
In the old days, I think it was the days of A, B, C, D novice and D expert,
we flew some number of flights in the contest and then the top three guys in
D expert had a fly off for a separate trophy. Makes the day a little longer
but seems to me it would make everyone happy. (if one doesn't care to fly
in fly off he doesn't have to)
Jim
On Mar 15, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Steve Hannah wrote:
I shouldn't have mixed the topic of judging and flying F. They are different
and unrelated. But I am not asking to shorten masters to satisfy FAI. I am
asking to do that for the sake of anyone who sits in the judges chair. I
like that a and b idea. That could really help. Maybe this should be it's
own thread.
I still think we should offer F. I'd rather see it mandatory but that isn't
what the proposal offers. So in order to move onward I'll support whatever
proposal we adopt to include it in someway. In the spirit of consensus, I
don't really like the proposal but I can live with it.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 16, 2010, at 3:15 AM, Chris Fitzsimmons
<homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Steve,
Are you saying to shorten the masters sequnce if too many guys show up in
masters? I don't see how making masters change to satisfy fai that is
shrinking because of difficulty. How fair is that? Hopefully I perceived
your comment incorrect.
Pattern was fun a few years ago. Im not quite having the same amount of fun
lately it seems. With this issue we have people moving back to masters or
saying they will. Where does the issue lay? In masters or fai? If people
want to fly f, it will most likely make sure at all contests that all fai
pilots will get a trophy. Is that what people want? I'd rather fly against
10+ masters guys than 2 fai. Would the fai pilots rather fly against 10 guys
flying p, or maybe 1 or 2 flying p and f? Cuz I could take a guess that that
is what would happen.
Just my opinion I guess.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 15, 2010, at 6:34 AM, Steve Hannah < <mailto:shannah1806 at gmail.com>
shannah1806 at gmail.com> wrote:
Bill
I support your idea to split the class. I'd rather do two short stints vs
one monster long one. Talk about things that can drive FAI flyers away, that
long sequence and marathon judging sessions is about ready to do it to me. I
think the CD should mandate a shortened sequence any time there are more
than 5 fliers. Plus you should split the line if more than 8 show up.
As for FAI F: I don't support the pilots option or CD option. The current
proposal is effectively doing nothing beyond what we have right now. Either
we do it or we don't. If I have the choice to optionally throw away two
rounds then I'll probably opt to not do that and fly P. If I have 4 solid
rounds and my choice is to drive home early or fly F then I might fly F even
though it wouldn't have any bearing on the outcome.
Pilots already fly F on the P score sheets. I'd hope that we could introduce
an F seuence somehow but the voluntary optional thing doesn't work for me. I
can do that now but the results don't mean anything. So I'll fly P until
further notice.
Do it or don't do it.
Steve
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 15, 2010, at 10:20 AM, "Wallace, Bill" <
<mailto:WallaceBill at bfusa.com> <mailto:WallaceBill at bfusa.com>
WallaceBill at bfusa.com> wrote:
Tony:
My take on this is that we are not going to dictate to the CD’s hoe to run
their contest. John has suggested that if the FAI flyers want to fly the F
sequence, then the CD can run the last 2 rounds as either F or P to be
decided by the pilot. If he decides to fly the F then he will be scored at
the P schedule K factors. In my opinion, this is a fair way to run it, and
is how I am going to run the Hemet contest. If the FAI pilots don’t like
this, then they should speak up now or don’t gripe about it come contest
day. Let’s face it, we are never going to make everyone happy, but this
proposal does the best job of it – again in my never to be humble opinion.
Since Jon proposed this, and I think he will be running the Dist.
Championships, then I think we can assume that this is how they will be run.
Again, if you are a FAI pilot and you don’t like this suggestion, speak up
now. Now Jon – if I am wrong on this let me know. A more pressing problem,
IMO, is the heavily loaded Masters class we have in Dist. 7. At Yuma – half
of the registered pilots were in Masters (8). If we have a good size
contest (ie Riverside or Hemet) we could have 12 – 15 Masters pilots. This
will create havoc for the CD and the poor FAI and Advanced pilots who have
to sit in the chair for 2 – 2 ½ hours. My thoughts are to split the class
if the number gets over 10 and have the same judges for 2 rounds, but they
would only have to judge ½ the pilots each round. Then we would hold off
normalizing until the end of the 2nd round. I am thinking this would make
the judging a little more tolerable. Looking for comments and or other
suggestions. Thanks.
Bill Wallace
Fleet Sales Manager
Bridgestone Bandag Tire Solutions
4000 E. Mission Blvd.
Ontario, CA 91761
Cell Phone - 951-385-2605
Fax number - 615-493-2333
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From: <mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Frackowiak
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:17 PM
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level
Hi Jon,
Somehow this slipped through on my email, so I'm just responding now.
With all due respect (whenever I say that I think of Ricky Bobby!) I don't
see why there can't be some sort of approval by the majority of the F3A
fliers. A simple yes/no and posting the results would suffice. Without that,
it looks like just one guys ideas being pressed forward.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the entire idea of this discussion
was to come to an agreement amongst all the F3A pilots on what to do in this
district? If you leave it up to the individual CD's, will the D7
Championships be decided by that CD?
Thanks!
Tony
On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Jon Carter wrote:
Tony – There is no real “official” process per se to vote on this proposal.
As I said, I believe that this is a first “doable” step in a process and
unless I hear some strong objections from some FAI pilots my intention is to
forward my proposal to each CD who is running a D7 contest with my
recommendation to implement it if possible for their contest. Please keep in
mind that this decision is ultimately the CD’s of the individual events.
Thanks
Jon Carter
NSRCA D7 VP
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From: <mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [
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mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Frackowiak
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:08 AM
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level
Hi,
I will have no problem supporting this if this what the majority of the F3A
pilots have agreed upon. Is there a process to come to a majority agreement?
Tony
On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Jon Carter wrote:
Local contests and FAI: A modest Proposal.
As I have indicated on the D7 list and in e-mails to most of the D7 FAI
pilots I think that we need to come to a decision/recommendation for the FAI
class at local contests as soon as possible. At this point I have spoken
with almost every D7 pilot who flew in an FAI contest during the 2009
season. I would like to begin by stating some facts, some assumptions and
some goals.
Facts:
* The 2010 contest season started in Phoenix on 11/14/2009 and we are
3 contests into the season.
* Since we have already begun the season, I do not support adding “F”
as a required element at the D7 Championships for the 2010 season.
* There are strong opinions on both sides of this issue.
* Adding the “F” schedule at local contests is a significant change to
the way we have “traditionally” flown FAI.
* It is up to each individual CD to structure and run his contest in a
manner that follows the rules and satisfies the needs of his club and his
pilots.
Assumptions:
* Most D7 FAI pilots support an option to assist the pilots who go to
the Nats by providing them with a way to fly judged “F” sequences.
* Many D7 FAI pilots think that flying the “F’ sequence at local
contests would be fun, challenging and a way to more fully align ourselves
with what it means to fly “FAI”
* There will be a significant “learning” curve in judging the “F”
sequence.
Goals:
* Arrive at a set of guidelines for the 2010 season that will give an
event CD a framework for running the FAI class this year and allow pilots
who choose to, the ability to fly “F” and receive scores.
* Provide a path that will allow us to offer the “F” sequence at local
contests and the District Championships in 2011 and going forward if so
desired.
* If we make changes, ensure that a process of review is completed to
determine the positive or negative impact of the changes after the season
Proposal for the remainder of this year
Any FAI pilot who wants to may fly two rounds of F at a local contest, with
the CD’s permission. To simplify things for the CD I think that this should
be limited to the last two rounds on Sunday. If the CD is willing to permit
this, it must be mentioned as far in advance as possible. (On the website
and in the contest flyer at the minimum) If the CD does not want to fly the
“F” sequence, or no pilots want to, FAI will be flown as usual with a best 4
out of 6 “P” sequences.
The F schedule scores will simply be entered into the computer as a P
schedule. This will apply the “P” K-Factors to the “F” sequence. This is
obviously a “handicap” for the pilots who choose to fly the “F” sequence
(~17%). It does though allow them to fly the “F” sequence in front of judges
and receive scores that they can review for areas that need improvement.
All other scoring, i.e. count the best 4 out of 6 rounds, will be kept as
is.
District Championships
The District Championship will be flown as a Schedule “P” contest only. As I
mentioned up above, we are 3 contests into the 2010 season and I do not
think that it is proper to make a change of this magnitude for the District
Championships at this time.
The Future
I believe that we should observe these changes and their impact on our local
FAI contests for the remainder of this season. If they appear to be positive
and the majority of the FAI flyers like them we could make another step next
year. If the idea has strong local FAI pilot support, I would support making
our local FAI contests a best 3 out of 4 “P” and a best 1 out of 2 “F” for
2011. Please keep in mind that by trying something different this year we
are not committing ourselves to any changes for next year. If we adopt this
proposal we have most of a year for pilots to see “F” flown locally and for
the rest of us to learn how to judge it! Remember our goal is to compete,
improve our piloting skills and have fun!
Thanks
Jon Carter
NSRCA D7 VP
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