[NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests

Fri Mar 5 13:51:04 AKST 2010

Thanks for your insight Tony, your comments and views as a CD are important, but as you noted earlier you don't fly FAI anymore so while your vote may not count, Your insight does. 

The purpose and intent of the three different sequences for F3A is to systematically wittle down the number of contestants at a lrge contest until you have one winner. P is is a rite of passage in essence and if you are worthy you move on to fly F and so on... Obviously you k ow this but my point is we don't have that problem in the district so there is no need to employ all that... Unless we who fly F3A want to. 

The reason I say it that way is that doing so would institute a change in how we do things now. It's not my idea NOT to fly F or an unknown. I just don't because we don't do it. Simple. I started flying FAI for a couple reasons that

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Anthony Frackowiak <frackowiak at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Tom,

I'm going to answer your questions with my viewpoint.

I think the purpose of holding pattern contests is to conduct as fair as possible a competition that will select the various winners in each of the classes. The CD of each contest is obligated to run the event within the rules as closely as possible. It is then up to each of the entrants to a contest to decide if this is "fun" for them. I think everyone may have different ideas of what is fun. For some, it is only fun if they win. For others it is getting together with people of like interests. For others it is seeing how they stack up to the other fliers. IOW, just the act of competition is their enjoyment. I hope we can keep in mind that pattern events are competitions. They are not fly-ins or seminars. They are contests. I suggest if all someone wants to do is fly, then stay at home. You'll get a whole lot more flights.

The F3A event consists of two known patterns and an unknown. I suggest that someone entering the F3A arena with the opinion that all they are going to do is fly P is not really signing up to the F3A event. I feel they if all they want to do is fly one pattern, then an AMA class is a much better option. I know about all the possible problems we could have if a substantial number of F3A pilots moved to Masters. I think we would have to cross that bridge when it comes up. But the option is there. It's not like we would be telling all the F3A pilots who don't want to fly F to go away. I would just invite them to one of the others classes that are offered.

Keep in mind the why's for the F3A rules. In most countries, when they have a pattern event, the only class that is offered is F3A. They don't have the options that we do in the USA. And in most other countries, they will only fly one model at a time. So a local event has a very limited number of flights. With that limit, most events can only fly P. That is exactly why the Note 1 I posted is in the rules. In the USA, 6 rounds have become the standard that we want at our local events. We fly multiple flight lines, accepting the risk of mid-airs. We can much more easily fly F.

Years ago we had two patterns. A & B, then B & C, then C & D, and so on. They were increasingly difficult but not at the difference they are now. And of course, there was no unknown. And we always flew both patterns at the local meets. It was good for everyone. The pilots got in contest experience with both and the judges saw the patterns. The F3A event has certainly changed since then. Some like the changes and others, myself included, do not. But if you decide to fly F3A, I feel you should commit to flying the full event. 

I think it is important that as an NSRCA district that conducts a District Championships, and selects Champions in each of the classes, we should come up with an SOP for all the contests that fits the rules as well as possible. And to throw this out, I think at the District Championships, there should be P, F and at least one unknown. I think an awful lot of people would be interested in seeing that!

Again, most of this is just my opinion.

Tony

On Mar 5, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Tom Messer wrote:

No link is required, it's in the name... F stands for finals and I think it's inferred as to what it's purpose is. We don't have a finals for local or even district contests, so there's little need to run the sequence for our historical purposes. 

Your point is valid about best 3 of 4 of P, and additional Fs as required... In my mind I think that is the only correct way to do it if we decide that's what we want... It is
Spelled out in the rules and it for all to read and we aren't holding one person to a different standard than another. Personally I think that it's contrary to our culture and will affect masters and possibly attendance with the regulars. 

What concerns me about this change, if it's made, is that I'd we fly F at local contests, then we should do it at the districts as well.. if we call that a true "championship", then how long until we add unknowns? 

What is our purpose here? Fun for all or prep for a few?

Tom M

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2010, at 10:58 AM, Anthony Frackowiak <frackowiak at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hi All,

I just want to make a few comments. I do feel that this is a decision that should be made by those actively competing in F3A. I started the thread on RCU because in Phoenix I got in between two friends who are absolutely at opposite ends of this issue. I personally don't care what the F3A guys decide to do. I just feel that the only fair way to schedule and run contests is to come to some sort of agreement and institute it District wide.

I have seen this reference to the F3A rules stating that you only fly P at local meets. I wish somebody would send me a link so I could see that somewhere. I have the F3A rules from 2009 and the only thing I could find was this,

Note 1: Final and semi-final flights to determine the individual winner are usually only required for
World and Continental Championships. For open international events, national championships, and
domestic competitions, the total of the three best preliminary flights may be used to determine the
individual winner and team placing. Further flights of Schedule F may be planned, depending on
local conditions and time available.

That certainly doesn't state that you only fly P at local meets. It definitely gives you the option of using F. In fact, it sort of says that any additional flights after 4 should be schedule F. I could find nothing that says local meets only fly P. If it's there somebody please point me to it. And even if you were only going to use it in "Championships", shouldn't it at least be used at the District Championships? And if you are, shouldn't it be used at other local meets?

Judging may be an issue. It is every time the patterns change. But I don't see judging being the reason why you should not fly F. There are problems with judging every single pattern flown in every single class. It's far from just an F3A issue. That's another subject with me, but now is not the time.

Other areas of the country are flying F. It has not caused the end of the world as we know it. Maybe if we do start flying F at local meets more will move to Masters. I don't know. I moved because I wanted to go the Nats and I don't want to try to learn how to fly unknowns. Way too much work for my current energy level. And I don't believe in flying F3A locally then moving to Masters for the Nats. But I don't think you are truly participating in the F3A event if you never fly F. Again, just my opinion. 

As a CD I don't like the idea of the contestant picking what they're going to fly the day of the contest. I think it should be decided, advertised and that is what's done. Not voted on at the field. Now, if a contestant wants to fly something different then everyone else, I guess they have the option of doing whatever they want and taking the zeros. I guess the judges in the chair at the time can mark down what scores they think they flew, but if you didn't fly the correct maneuvers it would be a zero for the round. This talk of trying to come up with some changes to the K-factors or adjusting scores by some percentage make my head spin. Again, I'll do it if that is what's decided, but I wouldn't like it if I was still flying F3A.

As to what I am going to do for F3A at the Arvin contest, right now it's TBD. I'm hoping some consensus can be reached on this issue soon.

Tony  

On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Tom Messer wrote:

It would be one thing if we were deviating for the rules at our local contests by NOT flying F... but we aren't, the rules do not prescribe this for two day, local contests. It's also not the purpose of the F sequence... as stated before that purpose is to help whittle down the contestants in championship contests.

Of course that doesn't mean that we shouldn't fly it, and not have fun with it. I look forward to playing with it some myself... 

What is being proposed here is not by the rules... okay so what if we all want to do it? Well then we do it and have fun with it... That does not appear to be the case... So far we have the Kimbros, and Steve that have spoken out... I imagine there are handful of others that support it... but from what it looks like, it's definitely not a majority. 

Tony started the discussion as it relates to his Arvin contest. Not sure what the status is on his decision, but as a CD he has every right to do what he wants... will be interesting to see how it goes. But that was the scale of the proposal, just his contest, and it expanding a bit to ask for a little guidance as to how to proceed and if it was something the district would support.

If proposal is expanded, to a district wide protocol of some sort, then I think we should really ask ourselves this... How many of us want it mandatory that we are judged on the F sequence? Making it optional will not work, it's not fair or equal, and we have too many type A personalities... there will be snide comments and quips about, "well you didn't fly F". For those of you who don't think this will happen, if you listen to the under the breath comments during awards ceremonies or when final scores come out, you'll know what I mean...

If we don't have a majority who want that... then we should not do it. Masters will swell, and the few FAI guys who remain will be left to play with themselves (just a little pun there to break the mood ;) ). I don't see a reason, or the logic in changing everything for everybody just to help a few. What we should do, as a group, is support those who want this for the Nats, and just judge a couple of extra flights for them on Sat after the normal rounds are over... or do it with their throw away rounds like I have said before... if this still isn't good enough...

A wise old man (well not THAT old, not like dirt :) ) once told me a couple years ago that I should step up and do it myself and stop relying on everybody else... it was a different subject, and with my sparkling personality I definitely took it to heart with a skip and a smile... okay, that's not true, I wrote a nasty email in rebuttal... but he was right.

The subject was having a contest in Fresno... nobody wanted to CD it, and I and one or two others were vocal on how great of a site it was and that we needed to have it and all that jazz. The wiseman CD'd a couple contests a year and didn't want to do it... nobody else wanted to do it... and his point to me was... if you don't like that, do it yourself, we can't CD all the contests! he was right, and for better or worse, I did it myself.

I suggest that to the people who want F scored as part of the regular FAI class... if you want it, do it at your own contest like Tony might... maybe you should add another contest as well, do it yourself... prove to us that it works, and that people want it. If they do, the rest of us could follow...

Until then, I'm afraid without a majority district wide, we won't be doing this with my contest... If we do get that majority I would be happy to work something out and advertise it and all that jazz.

Regards,

Tom M

On Mar 5, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Steve Hannah wrote:

This will be short since I am on my iPhone. Ha ha

Years ago I would have agreed with Chris and Derek. That was before my IMAC days. Yes people can actually judge complex routines. Do they do a good job at it?  Not at first but they start to figure it out after a while. Sometimes it takes a lot of judge coaching. 

Second, flying the insanely complex unknowns in Advanced and Unlimited taught me how to just suck it up and do my best. You don't need to burns gallons of fuel or megawatts of electricity. You just go do your best. Sure there will be guys flying F over and over. Good for them. The majority of us are in the same boat with each other, we don't have time.   It really will make you a better flier to go try some things out of your comfort zone  

As I have heard it stated through the years, Pattern fliers can be seen as prima donnas.  I hate the thought of that. One thing that drives it home, in my opinion, is having folks be afraid to step up to the plate and blow chunks all over the sky while they butcher the routine. They don't want to look bad. Just get over it. Flying unknowns taught me how to do that. Just go out, have fun, learn from it, and relax.  So what if you blow it. Most everyone else will too. You will, however, feel a lot of accomplishment when you scores improve. And they will improve. 

Yes this will benefit the guys going to the nats. I think that is a good thing. Tighten up the judging for P (doesn't matter if we fly F or not) and get our guys some contest exposure to F. It helps our district. 

Lastly, this should not be a "pilots choice".  That screws up a lot of things. I like the idea of one scored round of F. Do well and you keep it. Blow it and it will be a drop. 

Personally, I will suck at it but I don't care. I really think it is good for the sport.  I've already seen it draw interest from my local IMAC and 3D crowd. It might help attract fliers.  

Steve

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:32 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:

Ah, who cares about a flame suit.. lol

I think it's fine, just shouldn't be mandatory.. If you make it mandatory it takes away from the majority of FAI pilots. These pilots (the majority) don't seem to want to fly F because they aren't going to the nats and don't want to fly it. They are the one's supporting the local contests right? So we should tell them you have to fly F so that the few FAI pilots in our district that are going to the nats can fly it and get judged? Judged by who? Who is qualified to judge it? Heck, I don't know how to judge some of it. Could I guess my way through it? Sure, most likely. The first couple of guys flying it would probably be scored easier than the last guys IMO. What will happen to those pilots if we try to force this on them? Are their batteries (if electric) large enough to fly the F sequence, or does this create an extra burden on them to get bigger packs? I assume a glow guy would have a big enough tank.. It will also create another burden by having to
 setup different flight modes for the second sequence. It requires different things of the model.

On the other side, if you force people to fly both, they will become better pilots IMO. They may lose a plane or 2 (just kidding), but eventually it will help their skills IMO. I know learning new sequences has helped me tremendously. Another plus is that the guys who are judging will get to be better judges IMO. Other districts are doing this, let's not forget.

So, I am planning on moving to FAI pretty soon. Do I want to fly both?? No, not unless I can quit my job and go fly everyday so that I can be competitive.. Which I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen..

My advice on the situation is if someone wants to fly it, lets have the scoring in the computer so that it's possible. It can be done, it's not that difficult.. But don't make those who "have a busy life outside of pattern" have to learn another sequence. If that happens, FAI pilots are going to really dislike having to sit in the judges seat for 3 rounds a contest.. Masters will get really huge..

Chris

From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at comcast.net>
To: "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thu, March 4, 2010 10:29:48 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests

Flame suit on…

Are we really ready to let our judges loose on an F schedule?   I’m serious here… we have only a few very qualified judges that are capable of judging these sequences and we’re now going to ask them to judge an F schedule.  I’ve seen way too many F3A pilots fly out of the box without getting penalized, radii not flown consistently and not being penalized, roles in lines not positioned properly and not being penalized and then we’re going to ask these same judges to judge a sequence with 9 snaps, multiple elements in a maneuver and expect the outcome to be fair?

I know I’ve just flipped this around into a judging issue but that’s where I believe it lies.  Several D7 pilots want to go to the Nats, but as we’ve seen in past years, they have not been treated too kindly by the Nats judges and that’s because they consistently win or place well here without flying the sequence the way it should be flown, and when they get to the Nats they get hammered.

Find good and consistent judges for F3A and then I’d say we have a shot at flying the P and F schedules and having an outcome that is fair.

And to answer your question, Jon… I intend to learn to fly the F sequence as I think it’ll make me a better pilot.  It’ll take a long time before I even consider myself contest ready with it since I’m only now starting to fly the P sequence and I’m just concentrating on the 1st part of it at this time.  Will I be ready to fly F any time soon – no.  If the option is available to fly F during a contest then I will more than likely take it provided that I have practiced it and am comfortable with it.  That definitely won’t be in March, April or May I’m afraid… perhaps June onwards.  I think 4 rounds of P and 2 of F would be good with the best 3 of P and the best F to count.  Now, for those pilots that don’t want to fly F – they can fly all 6 rounds of P and count their best 4.  I do not think we should exclude anyone from flying.

From: nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jon Carter
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:56 PM
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV,UT
Subject: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests

To:        D7 FAI pilots and those D7 pilots who are considering flying FAI at a D7 2010 contest.

From:    Jon Carter NSRCA D7 VP

I am soliciting input from all D7 FAI pilots on the question of whether to attempt to fly some F rounds at local contests. This is currently being discussed on RCU (I have attached a link to the discussion)

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9548995/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

I personally think that there are good points made on each “side” of the discussion. I would like to get some feedback from all of you (D7 FAI pilots) as to your preference. I know that not all of you read this list either but I think that I have e-mail addresses for most of the current FAI pilots and I know who you are! So, if I do not hear from some of you I will be sending out some personal e-mails.

Let me state my initial assumptions:

1) We do this to have fun!          
2) At a local contest it is the CD’s discretion as to how he runs the show. The important thing is that any deviations from the “standard” format be announced well in advance.
3) A set of D7 guidelines to assist a CD with this decision and a mechanism to handle it would be a “good” thing.
4) It should never be mandatory to fly the F sequence at a local contest. (This is strongly implied in the FAI rulebook)

Thanks guys, I look forward to hearing from you.

Jon Carter

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