I'm not sure if my prior post-attempts made it to everyone, so some of
this may be a repeat:
First, I'm not in favor of a district-shared printer. I've had two
printers go to dry-ink conditions from lack of constant use, which would
be a very likely scenario between contest seasons for D1. While new ink
cartridges easily resolves this issue, via purchase immediately prior to
a contest, the dry ink within the printer can be challenging to recover
from.
Second, having experience running a contest essentially by myself, I am
intrigued if the Vogel system could ease my workload with
score-entry. If a local WiFi needs to be set up to enable it, this
presents the problem of wifi distance/range limitations or
requirements. Site-specific arrangements will need to be considered.
My site probably has too great of distances to effectively use Wifi due
to electric source via generator arrangement (which is set up to support
local in-place structures that are intentionally far away from the
flight line). Therefore, is there a long-wired option with the Vogel
system to consider?
As you recall, at my last hosted-event, I used an erasable marking
board, which seams to satisfy pilot's thirst for placement info entering
the last few rounds. I use the Master Scoring software which will very
easily generate each pilot's data and statistics for the entire event
that can easily be emailed to anyone requesting their info.
Regarding Raspberry Pi: why bother with a Pi if we're already
bringing laptops to the event, for software scoring purposes, which
could also display on the big screen TV via HDMI port? On the flip
side, if Scott Smith's Master Scoring program could be made to work on
the PI, then PI would be another smaller package and cheaper alternative
versus bringing out a laptop or desktop PC.
I wonder if the Vogel system use a Pi and/or a PC laptop/desktop ?
Sal
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 11/2/2015 7:07 PM, Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-dist1 wrote:
>
> I’d be fine with a video scoreboard. Pilot tares / stats can be
> emailed at the end of the contest.
>
> Dave
>
> *From:*NSRCA-dist1 [mailto:nsrca-dist1-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dana Beaton via NSRCA-dist1
> *Sent:* Monday, November 02, 2015 7:03 PM
> *To:* Anthony Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>; CT, DE, ME, MD, MA,
> NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
>
> Not much. We need hard copy to share out the pilot stats at the end of
> the contest.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Nov 2, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-dist1
> <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>
> Now that is kind of intriguing! Instead of hassling with a printer
> and ink cartridges set up a scoreboard.
>
> What would people think of just having a scoreboard and no printer?
>
> A quick web search yields a 32" flat screen at WallyWorld for
> $129 dollars along with a Raspberry Pi for $40 could simplify our
> output and provide dynamic results for under $200!
>
> Anthony
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:44:17 -0400
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
> From: vze23c3q at gmail.com <mailto:vze23c3q at gmail.com>
> To: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com <mailto:anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>;
> nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> The actual computer is less of an issue than how much malware and
> other applications have been installed. Any "clean" Win7 or later
> will suffice. A Surface Pro may be a way to go.
>
> Note that E-Scribe still uses the MasterScore app. One solution
> to the printer would be using a large monitor along with
> PatternScoring.com <http://patternscoring.com> (like we had a
> Canandaigua) This would require WiFi (phone hotspot?) and a second
> computer at the field. If you recall, Peter had a Raspberry Pi
> (something like $40) running Chrome for the scoreboard. I think a
> quality printer is still required for the complete package however.
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-dist1
> <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> wrote:
>
> Thank you again Dana for making the extra effort! Anyone else
> to join the D1 Scoring Team?
>
> Scott, what is the minimal system that would run Master Score?
> Also, how old of a system will run Master Score effectively.
> Just trying to get a sense if we could collect some of people
> unused not so current laptops for scoring purposes as opposed
> to buying equipment.
>
> Another issue is output. Trying to keep a printer running
> outdoors can be quite a challenge but is key to generating
> scores. I wound up writing them on poster board but we need to
> have scores available after each round. Anyone have ideas on
> how we can streamline this equipment need?
>
> Anthony
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
> From: danamaenia at me.com <mailto:danamaenia at me.com>
> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 07:14:15 -0400
> CC: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com <mailto:anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>
> To: davel322 at comcast.net <mailto:davel322 at comcast.net>;
> nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> Agree with Dave’s observations about manpower, our recent
> contests and the problems to solve except for the funding
> part. Our contests have been friendly & small; what proceeds
> there are need to go to the clubs that have closed their
> airfields for the day or weekend so we can have our contests.
> Perhaps if we had large turnouts like they have in D7, fund
> raising might be feasible but that is just not realistic for
> D1. We are having fun at our small turnout contests so I
> don’t see that as the most rational problem to try to solve,
> given the recent history of D1 in the 5 years that I have been
> competing.
>
> Agree also with Anthony on solutions. This year is a off year
> for both Sequence Committee and Contest Board, so I can
> volunteer for scoring team work in D1 if others will also
> support Anthony's idea. We would need Scott Smith’s help to
> make this completely successful, IMO. If Scott would contact
> me off thread, I can share some observations and ask for some
> specifics on how to solve. We would not need a lot of
> volunteers to make this idea work for D1, but one or two more
> who either have reliable laptops running MS smoothly, know how
> to correctly install and operate MS, or would be willing to
> work during the off-season so we are ready to go with updated,
> primary and back-up computers (and printers) known to operate
> for our 2016 contests. We can think through staffing for
> scoring ideas once the laptop solution is in sight. Will be
> much easier than a conversion to the Vogel system for 2016
> IMO. Dana
>
> On Oct 28, 2015, at 11:49 PM, Dave Lockhart via
> NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>
> D1 has never done much in the way of raising funds for the
> District.
>
> IF we start raising funds for the District….what is the
> best way to spend it?
>
> Some (somewhat) random thoughts -
>
> Manpower is much more of a problem at contests now than in
> the past. More contests are being run by fewer people, and
> at smaller contests, running a single flightline is the
> only option. If the contest were more efficient to
> run….that would help….the Vogel system is efficient (when
> working properly with a trained person to set it up and
> watch over it).
>
> Many of the problems I see at contests are due to
> inadequate planning / prep. This is not a knock on the
> CDs or organizers….it is a reflection of ONE guy putting
> together the event and not having time to do a dry run, or
> operation check on all the equipment prior to the
> contest….so problems end up being found and addressed on
> the day of the contest. A Vogel system will not help much
> here….and may be more difficult since it requires a
> greater level of knowledge/skill to get it right.
>
> I think the Vogel scoring system may (in time) increase
> the range of scores used, and reduce impression
> judging….the effect may not be as pronounced as
> predicted. Is $2500 best spent on a Vogel system or on
> encouraging people to attend judging seminars, clinics,
> sponsoring pattern primers, etc? Or on a “contest” laptop
> to be passed along contest to contest….and setup by a
> savvy scorekeeper at the beginning of each season?
>
> If we want $$$ for D1 (for whatever use)…we can “skim” a
> little from each contest entry fee. We can run 50/50
> raffles at every event. We can sell D1 hats, Tshirts,
> etc. And we can do a lot of these things at WRAM show and
> look for opportunities to do so at other events.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Dave
>
> *From:* NSRCA-dist1
> [mailto:nsrca-dist1-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Anthony Romano via NSRCA-dist1
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2015 4:50 PM
> *To:* district one <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
>
> Thanks Dana. You beat me to the punch on a lot of this.
>
> My takeaway is that we still have some CDs struggling with
> scoring and Master Score setup resulting in the last
> minute spreadsheet and subsequent hair pulling.
>
> The idea of a few designated D1 laptops/printers and
> individuals to assist in scoring set up would be the first
> step before adding complexity. Now who would volunteer to
> part of a scoring team to manage this?
>
> Anthony
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:52:27 -0400
> To: vze23c3q at gmail.com <mailto:vze23c3q at gmail.com>;
> nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
> From: nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> Good conversation! I agree with John that there is a
> consistency issue to solve. The problem I’ve observed is
> around legacy laptops not always reliability running
> Master Scoring. Perhaps Scott can consult with us and we
> can see what can be done on a local level before contest
> season begins? Maybe we need a tech session at WRAM where
> CDs or score keepers can bring in their laptops for a
> tune-up (or assessment if the equipment is not up to the job)?
>
> No doubt there are many advantages to Peter Vogel’s system
> if it can be digested by those who choose to use it, but
> it remains to be seen if it changes judging behavior or
> outcomes. Perhaps not as much as D7 would like us to
> believe? I have not used it yet myself, but I go with Ed
> on the point about noting deductions as I see them. The
> tech problem I see in D1 would not necessarily be solved
> if we just have new problems that come with the new gear.
> Sometimes less is more, especially when the main activity
> is competitively flying model aircraft, can be complex
> enough at (the wrong) times!
>
> To Joe’s point about better judging, D1 made a huge step
> forward this year in having a well attended Judging
> Clinic. We should continue this so that all can improve
> our skills and assist the newcomers and growing Sportsman
> class maintain interest and gain competency. Will be
> critical as they challenge Intermediate. We might even
> think of holding a second one in NJ or PA if one of the
> clubs that is not hosting a contest is interested in
> education as a more managable alternative. (Mike,
> interested?) Will help D1 get more people out to
> contests, or at least come back again in 2016, if they
> feel in the know.
>
> To Mike’s question, the investment is one of time rather
> than money (D1 has none I think), and adding even one new
> contest to the calendar is a major committment for a
> flying club. We actually have enough contests so my
> interest would be improving the quality of each that we
> have and increasing attendance, rather than holding more
> of them. There is never enough stick time, practice,
> practice, LOL!
>
> We have a terrific DVP in Anthony who had done a great job
> for D1 in 2015. We need to return the favor and all get a
> little more involved doing things in D1 as he has a new
> job and perhaps much less time to practice and contribute.
> We all have great ideas, if we can put some of those to
> work on a proactive basis, D1 should continue to thrive in
> ’16! As for raising $2,500 for the new system, perhaps we
> could just start with tending to the local laptops first
> so next season runs a little smoother for the CD’s and
> their non-combatant scoring volunteers (or wives). Will
> make the contests more engaging for the newcomers too if
> results are not so painful to eek out or wait on. That
> and judging clinic(s) will help us keep up the momentum.
> Other ideas?
>
> On Oct 28, 2015, at 2:24 PM, Scott Smith via
> NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>
> Score distribution of 4 contests using the E-Scribe
> and 4 using paper. Slightly higher scores overall with
> E-Scribe, but no difference below 6...I have to admit,
> that isn't quite what I expected!
>
> (screen capture below in case it gets clipped)
>
> <image.png>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Michael DiGennaro
> via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I may be a newbie to Pattern but I have vast
> experience in complex instant scoring systems. In
> this case there is only a "cool factor" and in my
> opinion no measurable affect on the outcome or
> attendance of a contest.
>
> If D1 is to invest hard cash into something
> perhaps some more actual events/contests would be
> nice. Would our D1 folks benefit more from slick
> scoring or more flying?
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:02 AM, JOE LACHOWSKI
> via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>
>
> Actually, there needs to be more focus on
> getting people to the contests.
>
>
> Joe Lachowski
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Ed Alt wrote:
>
> Yep!
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2015, at 10:52 AM, JOE
> LACHOWSKI via NSRCA-dist1
> <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>
> I never look at scores. It only makes
> me angry. Only interested in results
> relative to my fellow competitors.
> LOL. Focusing on having better
> qualified and a bigger pool of judges
> than an automated scoring program is
> more important. I prefer writing on
> paper no matter what and will never
> use an automated system when I judge.
>
>
>
> Joe Lachowski
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:43 AM,
> Scott Smith via NSRCA-dist1 wrote:
>
> I think, more than anything,
> Peter's system provides for better
> judging. Points are deducted as
> defects are seen; no more
> impression judging. If no defects
> are seen, it's a 10. If numerous
> defects are flown, a 1 or 0 is
> easily possible. Where as how many
> actually write a 1? It also allows
> for the judge to never have take
> their eyes off the airplane to
> record a score.
>
> The logistics of moving scores and
> eliminating transcription errors
> is just gravy.
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 9:33 AM,
> John Ford via NSRCA-dist1
> <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> wrote:
>
> I think that we need to
> remember what the core problem is…
>
> The core problem isn't the
> choice of scoring system,
> hi-tech, lo-tech, or anything
> else.
>
> The NSRCA's mission is to
> provide Contests and Contest
> Experiences to its members.
> That means that the local
> contest is king of everything
> we do and has the greatest
> influence on how our sport
> evolves and lives. (Sorry, but
> the NATS are a statistically
> trivial part of all NSRCA
> activity)
>
> From the perspective of a new
> Sportsman, THE SINGLE BIGGEST
> DEAL in his/her mind is seeing
> their score after the first
> round of their first
> contest…that's it.
>
> In the Districts (I've seen
> several, not only D1), we have
> volunteers/CD's who run the
> current "manual" software very
> very well, without a hitch,
> and posting rounds a few
> minutes after the last pilot
> lands. Within the same
> districts, there are contests
> where scores are simply not
> available at all until Sunday
> afternoon. We even see
> contests where an
> "on-the-spot" excel
> spreadsheet gets created on
> Saturday morning because of an
> unresolvable glitch in the
> software.
>
> So we have a consistency issue
> to solve, not necessarily a
> major technology obstacle to
> overcome.
>
> Probably relatively easy to
> solve the former, and much
> more demanding on someone's
> time to solve the latter via
> Peter's system.
>
> Just my opinion…
>
> John Ford
>
> On Oct 28, 2015, at 9:06 AM,
> Dana Beaton via NSRCA-dist1
> <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> wrote:
>
> It’s a system Matt, and
> someone needs to set-up
> WiFi at each contest so
> that the scores are passed
> to the computer as the
> judges record them. Would
> require a non-trivial
> level of knowledge,
> training and commitment to
> implement and maintain in
> any District; that said,
> not insurmountable if
> that’s what any District
> wants to do and has
> volunteers who will see it
> through. What is perhaps
> as interesting is that how
> our members wish to score
> rounds at a contest? There
> is a certain simplicity in
> the way we do it now, with
> pencil and paper, that is
> perhaps not something that
> all would like to discard
> for recording downgrades.
> We could say that if it
> isn’t broke, don’t fix it;
> but to be honest that is
> not entirely the case,
> that what we do now is not
> broke; but Vogel’s
> solution is only one
> possible way to address
> what sometimes does not
> work well at our D1
> contests. What do others
> think?
>
> On Oct 28, 2015, at
> 8:06 AM,
> rcmaster199 at aol.com
> <mailto:rcmaster199 at aol.com> wrote:
>
> I want to qualify my
> comments. I only have
> a passing interest in
> Peter's scoring
> system, so take what
> I'm about to say with
> a grain of salt.
> Bottom line, "I think"
> that it scores each
> maneuver directly into
> a database and
> produces
> immediate results
> after each pilot has
> flown. That's really
> cool! If I understand
> it right.
>
> I think that for D1
> it's likely a mater of
> logistics. How many
> contests are there and
> what is the real
> workload the system
> likely to alleviate?
> Having the instant
> response is a nice to
> have but is it
> absolutely
> necessary? Are the
> required people who
> have been doing the
> job no longer
> available? Or is it
> one big hassle every
> Saturday morning and
> that's the real
> benefit? But someone
> still needs to manage
> something with this
> software, don't they?
>
> Money: Chances are
> that you the pilots
> will need to put up
> the money. You may ask
> the NSRCA board for
> assistance and might
> get 200$. And what
> about new pilots
> coming into pattern
> (in D1)? When do they
> participate with their
> wallets?
>
> Is the app enough
> technology to help a
> contest or do you have
> to have the full blown
> system?
>
> Matt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dana Beaton via
> NSRCA-dist1
> <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> To: Anthony Romano
> <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com
> <mailto:anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>>;
> CT, DE, ME, MD, MA,
> NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI,
> VT, ME, MD, MA, NH,
> NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT
> <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Sent: Wed, Oct 28,
> 2015 6:27 am
> Subject: Re:
> [NSRCA-dist1]
> PatternScoring System
>
> Aside from the obvious
> question of where
> would the $2,500
> investment come from,
> I wish I could say
> that contest scoring
> has NOT been an issue
> in D1, and that we
> really don’t need a
> some solution. With
> all due respect to our
> clubs, CDs, their
> assistants and
> volunteers who have
> been doing their very
> best with what they
> have to work with; we
> have had challenges in
> recent contests with
> legacy laptop
> computers and that
> remains an issue,
> albeit a local one for
> contests in 2016. Now
> I would not go so far
> as to say that Vogel's
> solution is the right
> fit for D1; but it’s
> availability does beg
> the question if we can
> do better as a
> District; and raise
> the question if there
> is an alternative to
> continuing with the
> various local laptops?
> Perhaps D1
> acquiring/updating a
> laptop or two to
> support contests at
> the District level as
> an intermediate step?
> If we cannot
> supply/support a D1
> laptop or two, and
> manage the logistics
> of who has it, where &
> when, then we are not
> likely to pull off a
> full conversion to
> Vogel’s system.
>
> My observation is that
> we have enough capable
> volunteers at each
> contest to enter
> scores, many of whom
> are now familiar with
> Master Scoring
> software; but we have
> had an uneven
> experience with the
> the laptops themselves
> in recent years. What
> do others think and is
> this an issue we want
> to address as D1 (or
> just let it stay local
> knowing that contests
> may not go as smoothly
> as they could if we
> had some robust D1
> hardware backing our
> local efforts)?
> Perhaps if we can
> manage the logistics
> of shepherding two D1
> scoring computers
> around in 2016, we
> might upgrade to
> Vogel’s system in the
> future once additional
> members have been
> exposed to it enough
> to decide if they want
> to use it at their
> local contests (most
> D1 members do not
> travel to the Nats)?
>
> On Oct 27, 2015,
> at 9:00 PM,
> Anthony Romano via
> NSRCA-dist1
> <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> wrote:
>
> Please read the
> below message from
> Peter Vogel about
> the electronic
> scoring system he
> brought to the
> Canandaigua
> contest this year.
> Should D1 invest
> in one of these
> systems? Anyone
> willing to manage
> this?
>
> Anthony
>
> After 2 very
> successful
> trouble-free
> runs at the
> SAM contest 2
> weeks ago and
> the Cajun NATS
> last week.
> Last Monday I
> finally
> decided it was
> time to submit
> the app
> formally to
> the app store
> rather than
> relying on
> development
> loads to
> individual
> iPod touches
> or TestFlight
> 30-day conk
> beta loads for
> my friends in
> Australia who
> have been
> experimenting
> with the app.
> As more
> districts
> reach out to
> me with orders
> for fully
> configured
> setups I
> wanted to make
> sure I had a
> path to get
> software
> updates out to
> devices in a
> timely manner.
>
> So I'm pleased
> to announce
> that as of
> today the
> PatternScoring
> app for iOS is
> live on the
> App Store as a
> free app!
>
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/patternscoring/id1018433564?mt=8
>
> If you've
> never used the
> scribe app
> before, feel
> free to
> download and,
> with a good
> internet
> connection,
> use the "demo
> contest" mode
> to play with
> it. Naturally
> the intent is
> to use it with
> a game
> controller,
> but the
> buttons on the
> screen with
> the picture of
> the game
> controller do
> work to give
> you a flavor
> for how things
> work.
>
> If you are
> using it on
> iOS 8, you
> will notice
> that the voice
> is a little
> bit fast.
> That's because
> iOS 9 changed
> the pace of
> the voice
> synthesizer
> and I
> submitted the
> version to
> work best with
> the latest iOS
> (9).
>
> I've also
> completed a
> complete Bill
> of Materials
> for the
> contest
> scoring
> system,
> including two
> handy rolling
> cases with
> custom-cut
> foam for
> everything
> needed (except
> the laptop) to
> run a contest,
> I sell these
> at my cost of
> $2500, fully
> configured to
> run a contest
> out of the box
> (i.e.: I'm not
> trying to make
> money on
> this). D8
> just bought
> one, and D7
> has bought
> two. If any
> other
> districts have
> an interest in
> getting one or
> more sets,
> please contact
> me directly
> and we can
> make
> appropriate
> arrangements.
> Please make
> sure you have
> one or more
> people in the
> district who
> are willing
> and able to
> take on the
> running of
> scoring at a
> contest using
> the system.
> I'm making
> continuous
> refinements to
> the system to
> make it easier
> for anyone to
> run scoring,
> but it does
> require a
> certain level
> of comfort and
> familiarity
> with
> technology in
> general.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Peter+
>
> --
>
> Director,
> Fixed Wing
> Flight Training
>
> Santa Clara
> County Model
> Aircraft Skypark
>
> Associate Vice
> President,
> Academy of
> Model
> Aeronautics
> District X
>
> Treasurer,
> National
> Society of
> Radio Control
> Aerobatics (NSRCA)
>
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> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Mike DiGennaro (Mike D.)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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