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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>When the original question came up, my response was the lines are judged and 25% + is out of the box, so, about 2-3 points off (3/8 is better). His response was that only about 10% of the maneuver is out. As I thought about it, it became clear to me, I wasn’t exactly sure. No, the regs don’t mention volume but they do say a percentage of the maneuver out of the box. So, what’s percentage? That’s why I asked the question here. Maybe it is a small error deserving little downgrade. Somewhat like the old FAI rule on radii where the first radius determined the radii for the rest of the maneuver. A square Cuban eight with a 7 identical radii but a different 1<sup>st</sup> radius could generate a 7 point downgrade for one error.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Tjpritchett [mailto:tjpritchett@aol.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 5, 2020 7:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> Monte Richard; General pattern discussion<br><b>Cc:</b> Don Ramsey<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Well.....<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Ok: that makes more sense! ;)<o:p></o:p></p><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On Jul 5, 2020, at 8:34 PM, Monte Richard via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Don <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I don’t recall the maneuver descriptions, nor the list of deductions referring to volume. They describe elements, and deduction of errors in those elements. A square should be square, not rectangle etc, but I don’t recall volume listed as a judging criteria. Just my thought.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Jul 5, 2020, at 7:02 PM, Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'></span> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tim,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sorry but I would disagree. With the new rule for this year the maneuver is downgraded for quality and then the out of the box penalty is applied. So, a flopped stall turn is a zero in or out of the box. But this is not the reason I asked this question. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>To Mark, I don’t think there is a difference in top and side violations.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I question whether the lines of a square or the volume determine the maneuver. If you judges the lines and radii of the maneuver then 3/8 (3.5 or 4 pts) or something in that range (I would have to go with Cliff if I were in the chair) would be deducted. But, if the volume is considered maybe something along the line of about 15% or 1.5 pts would be deducted. I don’t know. Maybe something the Judging Committee should consider.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> NSRCA-discussion [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 5, 2020 6:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> flyintexanmark; General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging question</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>What’s odd about this model is that it applies equal value to each segment’s portion of the maneuver. Some segments are undisputedly harder than others. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'> For instance, say it’s a stall turn and not a square. The pilot flies the majority of the maneuver perfectly, but flops the stall. However, the flop and correction were out of the top of the box. The flop would earn him a zero if it was in the box, but since it was out, it would only be 1/3 or ~3.5 points of a downgrade. <o:p></o:p></p><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On Jul 5, 2020, at 6:24 PM, flyintexanmark via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Why should the top of the box violation be treated differently than the sides of the box violations?<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>That simply goes by percentage of the overall size of the manuever... correct?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>-------- Original message --------</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>From: Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Date: 7/5/20 5:13 PM (GMT-06:00) </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>To: Don Ramsey <<a href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com">donramsey@gmail.com</a>>, General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging question </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I agree with Cliff. I don’t think the current rule book consider to count elements out of the box. In any event, there is no time to do it and it is not practical. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Vicente “Vince” Bortone <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 4:52 PM Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So, how many points do you downgrade?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> NSRCA-discussion [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 5, 2020 4:11 PM<br><b>To:</b> Keith Black; General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging question</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'>I will do a proportion of the square out of the box. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'>On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 4:01 PM Keith Black via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'>Nice question. Sounds like 3/8 this of the maneuver is not acceptable, that leaves you with about a 6. Unless you decide to zero on the grounds that the entire maneuver must be in the box. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'>Keith<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%'>On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 3:26 PM Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>During a judging discussion recently, a question came up that I would like to get input from the group. Setup: A centered square loop (as if there could be a turnaround version) is flown with the upper radii and horizontal line flown out of the box. The other elements are perfect. What is your downgrade for the box violation?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%'>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%'>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p>(c) 2020 Compass Engineering & Consultants, LLC. 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