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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Errr… Mike… that was Jason. Jas S not Joe.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>mups53 <mups53@gmail.com><br><b>Date: </b>Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 9:32 AM<br><b>To: </b>Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com>, NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] P-21.14 Comet question for the experts<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Derek<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Its Joe Walker not Jason. Its easy to get that confused.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div id="composer_signature"><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;color:#575757'>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>-------- Original message --------<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>From: Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Date: 12/22/19 11:13 AM (GMT-06:00) <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>To: Jas S <justanotherflyr@gmail.com>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] P-21.14 Comet question for the experts <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Well said Jason! <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Get <a href="https://aka.ms/o0ukef">Outlook for iOS</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=0 width="100%" align=center></div><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 22, 2019 7:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] P-21.14 Comet question for the experts <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>Pilots have to be able judge a class up or down or both. Depending on the turnout some even have to judge a couple above or below their class. That is part of pattern. It’s the part that many don’t enjoy, but the pilot enjoys getting an accurate score based on their flight. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>It is up to us, the pilots, to understand the patterns enough to be able to judge them fairly. I’ve always said, patterns are just lines and loops with elements included. If you take out the elements (rolls/snaps) in F3A, you have something close to an Intermediate pattern. I do this from time to time to focus on geometry and flow, especially with new patterns. Judging does not require a pilot to be capable of flying the maneuvers, just to be able to break down each one into its basics and judge accordingly.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>These discussions are good to have. This in particular because here in D3 we have had this same discussion and we came up with the conclusion the lines didn’t have to be the same. I practiced it the same so that’s what I continued to do but others did it with different line lengths. The PP didn’t specify either so we left it at that but now we know.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Another example is the Center Humpty in Masters. The aresti, while never drawn accurately since it’s inception, shows corners at the top and a half loop at the bottom. That’s not how it’s supposed to be flown though. Like the PP shows (too many pages to have on a call sheet) it’s matching 2- 1/4 loops on top and a 1/2 loop with the same radiI at the bottom. Unfortunately none did it that way during the contest and lost a handful of points because of it. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I’m not sure if pilots realize this or not, but understanding how to judge a pattern correlates to being able to improve ones flying of a pattern. Once you start to get picky about your judging, you’ll start to get picky about your flying and everything gets better. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Happy Holidays<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Jas iP<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Dec 22, 2019, at 9:28 AM, mups53 via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>FWIW<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> Some may wonder why participation at the Nats is in decline.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> Well this discussion is an example of why. As the complexity of the maneuvers ramps up it also makes judging them harder.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Masters fliers for the most part are the ones who have to judge FAI. For many they don't enjoy it and instead dread having to learn it all so they can feel confident they are competent enough. After all we take on the task with a deep sense of responsibility.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> I don't know the answer to this situation.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> I only know it exists.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> Merry Christmas everyone.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike Mueller <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div id="composer_signature"><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt;color:#575757'>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>-------- Original message --------<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>From: GLEN WATSON via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Date: 12/21/19 9:05 PM (GMT-06:00) <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>To: AC Glenn <bhzboy07@gmail.com>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>, J <vellum2@bellsouth.net> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] P-21.14 Comet question for the experts <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'>This is the challenge of interpreting and applying consistent judging standards. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'>According to 5B.2 and 5B.10: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'>In general, turn-around manoeuvres are positioning manoeuvres. Therefore, entry and exit altitude need not be the same if the pilot wishes to make an attitude adjustment. The keywords are 'in general', this implies 5B.2 and 5B.10 would be in effect unless otherwise specified in the manoeuvre description. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'>P-21.14 description: <br>Comet with consecutive two ¼ rolls in opposite directions, ½ roll. From upright, push through a 1/8 loop into a 45° downline, perform consecutively two ¼ rolls in opposite directions, pull through a ¾ loop into a 45° downline, perform a ½ roll, pull through a 1/8 loop, exit upright. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'>In the description of P-21.14 there is no requirement mentioned to line length or how the lines are drawn except they are 45 degrees. Therefore I surmise the standard under 5B.2 and 5B.10 should be applied. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'>Regards, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'>Glen Watson <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'>On December 21, 2019 at 8:15 PM AC Glenn via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> wrote: <br><br><b>Error! Filename not specified.</b><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from my iPhone <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Dec 21, 2019, at 7:45 PM, J <vellum2@bellsouth.net> wrote: <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>No they don’t. It’s a turn around maneuver that can be used for height adjustment. The power point specifically addresses this question in the downgrades. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Joe <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Dec 21, 2019, at 8:29 PM, AC Glenn via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> wrote: <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Yes they do <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from my iPhone <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Dec 21, 2019, at 7:14 PM, Don Szczur via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> wrote: <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>This may have been asked already, but do the lines have to be the same length? <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Thanks, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Don <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________ <br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list <br>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________ <br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list <br>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________ <br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list <br>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#333333'><br> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>