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FWIW, FAI pretty much settled the debate regarding the center of point rolls a few years ago by eliminating the term "point rolls". Presently all hesitation rolls are defined by rolling elements. For example, a simple "4 point roll" becomes "4 one quarter rolls" with 2 rolling elements each side of center. Pretty elegant solution - no issue with a "point" after the last rolling element, maneuver (with straight entry / exit) starts with beginning of first roll and is over with finish of last rolling element. Hesitations do need to be "brief" and of equal length, immediate if reversal.
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So, with equal rolling elements either side of center, the F3A 3 of 4 reversed (immediate reversal) is the moment between the 3rd and 4th roll element. If AMA sequences used the same language, the Masters 3 of 4 reversed becomes the middle of the hesitation between the 3rd and 4th roll element.
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Adopting the FAI terminology for hesitation rolls in AMA sequences seems advisable (these maneuvers are mostly about part rolls anyway). If this simple language change was made long ago it sure would have eliminated the many hours Tony, me, and many others have spent in pilot / judges meetings over the last 50 years or so discussing the "center of the 4 point roll".🙂
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Earl Haury
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On November 27, 2019 at 12:00 AM Anthony Frackowiak via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
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<br> That illustration is not from the 70’s. In the 1982-83 rulebook the center of the Reverse Point Roll is not specified. Neither is it in the 1984-85 rulebook. I know how I flew it at the 1983 Worlds.
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I’m fine with however it is in the current descriptions. I guess I just missed those pilots meetings at the Nats and Team Trials in the 70’s. You had to be there to appreciate that comment.
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<br>Tony Frackowiak
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<br>On Nov 26, 2019, at 7:31 PM, Wayne Galliga <
<a href="mailto:wayg2013@gmail.com">wayg2013@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<br>From AMA rules 70s this illustration makes it clear where the center of the maneuver is.
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Sent from my iPad
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<br>On Nov 26, 2019, at 10:00 PM, Anthony Frackowiak via NSRCA-discussion <
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:
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That’s one way to look at it. Another way is that the maneuver has 6 points, or 6 distinct wing positions. It also has 6 rolling sections. So the maneuver starts with a rolling section and ends with a “point” section. So, roll, point, roll, point, roll, point. Then reverse roll, point, roll, point, roll, point. So the center is at the conclusion of the 3rd point where the reverse roll segment begins.
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<br>Tony Frackowiak
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<br>On Nov 26, 2019, at 6:33 PM, Stuart Chale <
<a href="mailto:schale1@outlook.com">schale1@outlook.com</a>> wrote:
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<p>I see it as wings level going in as the same as wings level going out. If you agree with that then you have 11 elements if you count the 1/4 rolls and flight segments. 1 is 1/4 roll to the first knife edge. 2 is the first knife edge, 3 is the next 1/4 roll, 4 is upright flight etc</p>
<p>1 is the first 1/4 roll and 11 is the last 1/4 roll. # 6 is the middle of that group and it is the second knife edge flight</p>
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<p>Stuart</p>
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<p><jgedcanjdfoahonj.png></p>
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On 11/26/2019 9:02 PM, Anthony Frackowiak wrote:
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I still disagree. This maneuver has been flown since the late 70’s, early 80’s. The center has always been considered to be the point where the roll reverses. Don’t forget the last wing level is a “point” and should be considered a part of the maneuver.
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<br>Tony Frackowiak
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<br> On Nov 26, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:
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<p>The maneuver description calls for a hesitation at 270 degrees, not an immediate reversal in this case. So the center is the middle of the second knife edge.</p>
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<p>Stuart</p>
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On 11/26/2019 4:36 PM, Braxton Dudley via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
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That was my understanding as well. I believe that is what we had in the description of the maneuver under the downgrades. It said “maneuver not centered” In parentheses it had “knife edge”. I assume that would be the center of the second knife edge.
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Braxton Dudley
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On Nov 26, 2019, at 2:21 PM, joncarter60 via NSRCA-discussion
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That is certainly my interpretation as well.
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Jon Carter
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Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6 edge, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
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-------- Original message --------
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From: Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
<a class="ox-2a4fb15094-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"> <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
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Date: 11/26/19 5:16 AM (GMT-08:00)
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To: Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion
<a class="ox-2a4fb15094-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"> <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
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Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Center of 3 of 4 pt roll reversed
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<p>I believe it should be the center of the second knife edge.</p>
<p>Stuart<br></p>
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On 11/26/2019 8:02 AM, Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
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<p class="ox-2a4fb15094-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Has anyone considered what the center of the 3of4 pt rolls reversed in the Masters sequence might be? </span></p>
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