<div><div dir="auto">Opps. Out. </div></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 11:09 AM Vicente Bortone <<a href="mailto:vincebrc@gmail.com">vincebrc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I like Time Our. I agree 100% with Mark. <br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="m_7037823124828904335gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Vicente "Vince" Bortone</div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 10:50 AM Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>+1</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371composer_signature">
<div style="font-size:85%;color:rgb(87,87,87)" dir="auto">Sent from my Galaxy Tab® S2</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Anthony Frackowiak via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 8/16/19 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00) </div>
<div>To: Atwood Mark <<a href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</a>>, General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question, plus one of mine </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
This whole email chain is an example of why the event is dying. It’s just about proof that it is impossible to judge the flying as it has evolved. We keep making the maneuvers more complex, imbalanced and with more elements yet there has not been any significant
improvement in a humans ability to absorb all of it and assign a score.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Tony Frackowiak</div>
<div> <br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Aug 16, 2019, at 7:35 AM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>
Time out…
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>The maneuver is centered based on where it starts, and where it ends</b>. When done properly, the center of a
<b>symmetrical</b> maneuver is fairly obvious and in the case of the two rolls mentioned, the center of the pause between the two rolls, or in the case of no pause, the transition point. BUT… if one roll is performed more slowly, that does not mean
the maneuver is automatically not centered. They can still center the maneuver, it’s just no longer at the center of the pause between rolls. So yes, you can have a maneuver that is downgraded for JUST the roll rate change because it’s still centered.
And another where you need to downgrade for both.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Admittedly, that’s tough to watch for as a judge, but there’s no double jeopardy here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-M</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>On Aug 16, 2019, at 10:22 AM, Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>
<div style="background-color:rgb(255,255,0);width:100%;border-left:5pt solid rgb(0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);border-width:5pt;padding:3pt;font-size:10pt;line-height:12pt;font-family:Calibri;text-align:left">
<span style="font-weight:bold">CAUTION:</span> Message originated from outside of Paragon. Use caution regarding any links, attachments, credential and financial requests.
</div>
<br>
<div>
<p style="font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">
If I understand Anthony's post, I have to agree with him on the double jeopardy point. If the pilot changes roll rate, then,
<em>ipso facto</em>, the second roll will be longer (or shorter) than the first roll. Since that is the case, downgrading for the delta roll rate
<strong>and</strong> the change in length of roll would be punishing the same error twice.</p>
<p style="font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">
I have a question of my own: is the "center" of such a maneuver judged as being on the center of the box, or is it judged as a center point of the maneuver, independent of where the center of the box is? It seems to me that the center of the maneuver and the
center of the box should coincide.</p>
<div class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371io-ox-signature">
<p style="font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371default-style">
<span class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371signature-truncate"><span class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371signature-truncate"><span class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371signature-truncate"><span class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371signature-truncate"><span class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371signature-truncate"><span style="font-family:"Arial Black";font-size:12px"><strong><em>Phil
Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member<br>
SPA L-18, Board Member, NSRCA 2032, KCRC Emeritus<br>
Knoxville, TN 37931 (865) 604-0541c</em></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">On August 15, 2019 at 10:46 AM Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:
<br>
<br>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
The distance from the end of the first roll should be an equal distance from center as the beginning of the second roll, when a pause is present. Variances in roll rate would be a separate downgrade. Changes in roll rate would affect the overall length but
would seem to be double jeopardy to downgrade for centering and if the rolls are true slow rolls, approx 3 seconds, very hard to judge.</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
Anthony</div>
<div> <br>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371ox-b6395746e2-divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><strong>From:</strong> NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
on behalf of Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:15 AM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> 'General pattern discussion' <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371ox-b6395746e2-x_WordSection1">
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">I finally have the World Championships posted on my site in an easy to read pdf format.
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://pages.suddenlink.net/donramsey" target="_blank">http://pages.suddenlink.net/donramsey</a></span></div>
<p class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371ox-b6395746e2-x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371ox-b6395746e2-x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">An interesting judging question came up the other day and I would like to get some feedback from the group.
</span></div>
<p class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371ox-b6395746e2-x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt">Are rolling maneuvers, like the current Masters 2 slow rolls reversed, an asymmetrical maneuver?
If the maneuver finishes the first roll just before center (as it should) then changes the roll rate causing the line length of the second roll to be different from the first, should this be considered a centering error in
</span><span style="font-size:14.6667px">addition</span><span style="font-size:11pt"> to the change in roll rate.</span></span></div>
<p class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371ox-b6395746e2-x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Don</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p style="font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371default-style">
<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________ <br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list <br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></blockquote>
<p style="font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_7037823124828904335gmail-m_1168551646029286371default-style">
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Vicente "Vince" Bortone</div>