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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Couldn't agree with Tony more, he is 1000% correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>CO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Anthony Frackowiak via NSRCA-discussion<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 16, 2019 10:14 AM<br><b>To:</b> Atwood Mark; General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question, plus one of mine<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This whole email chain is an example of why the event is dying. It’s just about proof that it is impossible to judge the flying as it has evolved. We keep making the maneuvers more complex, imbalanced and with more elements yet there has not been any significant improvement in a humans ability to absorb all of it and assign a score.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Tony Frackowiak<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Aug 16, 2019, at 7:35 AM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Time out… <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>The maneuver is centered based on where it starts, and where it ends</b>. When done properly, the center of a <b>symmetrical</b> maneuver is fairly obvious and in the case of the two rolls mentioned, the center of the pause between the two rolls, or in the case of no pause, the transition point. BUT… if one roll is performed more slowly, that does not mean the maneuver is automatically not centered. They can still center the maneuver, it’s just no longer at the center of the pause between rolls. So yes, you can have a maneuver that is downgraded for JUST the roll rate change because it’s still centered. And another where you need to downgrade for both.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Admittedly, that’s tough to watch for as a judge, but there’s no double jeopardy here.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-M<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Aug 16, 2019, at 10:22 AM, Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div style='border:none black 1.0pt;border-left:solid black 4.5pt;padding:3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:12.0pt;background:yellow'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>CAUTION:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> Message originated from outside of Paragon. Use caution regarding any links, attachments, credential and financial requests. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>If I understand Anthony's post, I have to agree with him on the double jeopardy point. If the pilot changes roll rate, then, <em><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>ipso facto</span></em>, the second roll will be longer (or shorter) than the first roll. Since that is the case, downgrading for the delta roll rate <strong><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>and</span></strong> the change in length of roll would be punishing the same error twice.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'>I have a question of my own: is the "center" of such a maneuver judged as being on the center of the box, or is it judged as a center point of the maneuver, independent of where the center of the box is? It seems to me that the center of the maneuver and the center of the box should coincide.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=default-style><em><b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member</span></b></em><b><i><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:#333333'><br><em><span style='font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif"'>SPA L-18, Board Member, NSRCA 2032, KCRC Emeritus</span></em><br><em><span style='font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif"'>Knoxville, TN 37931 (865) 604-0541c</span></em></span></i></b><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On August 15, 2019 at 10:46 AM Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The distance from the end of the first roll should be an equal distance from center as the beginning of the second roll, when a pause is present. Variances in roll rate would be a separate downgrade. Changes in roll rate would affect the overall length but would seem to be double jeopardy to downgrade for centering and if the rolls are true slow rolls, approx 3 seconds, very hard to judge.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Anthony<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=3 width="98%" align=center></div><div id=ox-b6395746e2-divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span></strong><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>> on behalf of Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br><strong><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></strong> Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:15 AM<br><strong><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>To:</span></strong> 'General pattern discussion' <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br><strong><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></strong> [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I finally have the World Championships posted on my site in an easy to read pdf format. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="http://pages.suddenlink.net/donramsey">http://pages.suddenlink.net/donramsey</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=ox-b6395746e2-xmsonormal style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ox-b6395746e2-xmsonormal style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>An interesting judging question came up the other day and I would like to get some feedback from the group. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=ox-b6395746e2-xmsonormal style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Are rolling maneuvers, like the current Masters 2 slow rolls reversed, an asymmetrical maneuver? If the maneuver finishes the first roll just before center (as it should) then changes the roll rate causing the line length of the second roll to be different from the first, should this be considered a centering error in </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>addition</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> to the change in roll rate.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=ox-b6395746e2-xmsonormal style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Don</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><p class=default-style><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'><br> <o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________ <br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list <br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=default-style><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333'><br> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>