<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I don't always assume a center beginning but I expect a significant line before the maneuver would require a deviation from horizontal. For the double I you mentioned center would be a fair spot for the straight line to begin since some distance very soon the
plane will deviate to begin the half loop. With any Immelman the roll should be immediate upon reaching horizontal and the push for the second half loop should be immediately after the wings return to level. The end point should be would be where the wing
returns to level when completing the second KE and this should coincide to the start of the initial pull for maximum points.</div>
<div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Anthony</div>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 11, 2019 8:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div class="x_WordSection1">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">My question would be, doesn’t the last horizontal line of the square form part of the square.
</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">FAI: All
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">manoeuvres must be entered and exited with straight and level upright or inverted flight of recognisable length. </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">AMA: </span><span style="font-size:11.5pt">Each time the model passes in front of the judges, a maneuver must be executed…. All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal line.
</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.5pt">I can’t find any reference to the length of this line except in the case of unscored turnarounds where it must be at least 15 meters.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">I’ve always judged these type maneuvers as if they start at center with a recognizable line before center. In the square, the final leg connects and finishes the maneuver. So in this case, the bottom of the square is formed
by a half line that starts at center and finished by the line on the last leg. </span>
</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">This is an interesting question as I’ve never considered Derek’s interpretation. It just never occurred to me and I don’t even try to fly it like that. I have always thought of say the Masters double immelmann, triangle, or
any square as starting at center. The question then becomes where is the exit. The last line is just a retrace of a prior line and the maneuver finishes with a straight line after the point where the first radii of the maneuver was started. On the double
immelmann I try to roll wings level at the point where I started the first half loop. All lines contribute to the shape of the maneuver.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">Of course, there are many maneuvers that do start before center.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">Don</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 10, 2019 10:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anthony Romano; General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Since the last maneuver is a centered square, the first line of the square is the bottom and thus starts before center. As Anthony mentions all maneuvers start and end with a straight line so one must assume that a straight horizontal line of reasonable length
must be visible before that straight line is flown before center. I would think that the judge would make a determination about the start line once the first vertical portion is started and then they could determine if the straight line in was proportional
to the maneuver. </p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;margin-bottom:12.0pt">
So, if the first vertical line starts at 50 yards past center then there should have been at least 50+ yards of straight horizontal flight prior to center in order for the maneuver to look like a square and be proportional. </p>
<div id="x_AppleMailSignature">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Sent from my iPhone</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<br>
On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Without digging through the rule book for chapter and verse all maneuvers begin and end with a straight line. So the beginning would be a straight line of significant length prior to be obviously
clear that it is a straight line. If the pilot locks the plane in wings level dead horizontal flight it could be a few seconds or what ever that translates to in distance that could be enough such as after the trombone and before the golf ball in masters. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">For a long drive across the box again I look for a defined straight line prior to beginning the maneuver. Certainly for those examples that begin past center than center is appropriate point. For
the last 2 maneuvers in P one would have to fly a very large half Cuban to encroach on center. This would be a poor presentation if the maneuver are not distinct.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Similar discussions could be had for the length of a hesitation in a roll or height of a stall turn. These should be explicitly long enough to be clear of what is intended.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">The pilots job is to convince the judges that the maneuvers have been flown correctly. If there is doubt in the judges mind then they should downgrade because the pilot has not completed this task.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Anthony</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="x_MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="98%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"> NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
on behalf of Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 8, 2019 10:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?</span> </p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">This question was brought up at a local contest without a sure answer.
<br>
This was specifically referring to the last 2 maneuvers in FAI P-19 but <br>
might apply to other situations as well. The last 2 maneuvers are a <br>
half Cuban with 2 of 4 on the 45 followed by a square with half rolls.<br>
<br>
So when does the square start? Is it at center? or at the first pull <br>
up? It clearly has to finish after center after a straight segment <br>
following the half roll. If the the half Cuban is flown large so that <br>
it finished after or at center box does that cause a downgrade on the <br>
square or do you start judging at the first pull up (no downgrade)?<br>
<br>
You could potentially have a similar question in Masters with the start <br>
of the triangle after the half square on corner turnaround.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Stuart Chale<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>