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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Pete,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>You can’t compare helicopters with flybarless rotors to airplanes with gyros. It’s a completely different situation. A flybarless helicopter can’t fly without the electronics that essentially replace the flybar – which is what “stabilizes” and de-sensitizes the rotor. To make an airplane behave in a similar manner you could remove the horizontal or vertical stab or at least make it so small that the airplane would not be stable. As you might imagine, it would be impossible to control without some form of electronic stabilization (i.e. a gyro) to replace the mechanical stabilizers. This is not the same as adding a gyro to a Pattern airplane, which is already considerably stable to begin with.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>What exactly is the impetus behind allowing people to compete in 401 with airplanes that do a lot of the work for them? Is it to make it easier for someone who doesn’t possess fundamental flying skills to compete in 401? BAD IDEA!!! They have to learn sooner or later. If they can’t fly the 401 sequence unless they have gyros, how do you expect them to progress to 402 (a more challenging sequence that doesn’t allow gyros)? You guys are worried about people leaving Pattern yet I think you just found a REALLY good way to make that happen!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>John Pavlick<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Cell: 203-417-4971<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><img width=90 height=39 style='width:.9416in;height:.4083in' id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D4AFFC.04773E50" alt=idslogo2><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Impact",sans-serif'>Integrated Development Services</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 18, 2019 4:46 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jon Lowe <jonlowe@aol.com>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gryo's in Pattern?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On the face of it, I agree with Jon. That said, I think the same concerns existed in F3C about 5-7 years back, but they started allowing Flybarless system electronics (which are effectively 3D gyros) and their world didn't implode. From my perspective having flown some Gyro-enabled aircraft (obviously not in competition) the gyro actually buys you VERY little. It makes the lines smoother, but the geometric challenges, centering, throttle control, etc. all apply and are NOT solved by the gyro. In fact, some things become significantly harder with a gyro (i.e. a stall turn) as the gyro is actively fighting the intended behavior of the plane. This was also the conclusion, IIRC, of the committee that reviewed whether to allow FBL in F3C.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Peter+<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 1:01 PM Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p>This defeats the whole point of the sportsman pattern: to fly straight lines, establish angles, and to put the plane where you want it, not where it wants to go. Most sport fliers can't fly a straight line if their life depends on it. New pattern flyers are amazed when I make them practice straight and level flight over and over before I left them try maneuvers. After awhile, they see the point.<o:p></o:p></p><p>We have a guy in our club who flies gyros all the time. When they are on, he can fly beautiful lines, slow rolls, point rolls, etc. Turn them off, and he's all over the sky. Sportsman would be won by someone who could set up their gyros the best, not by someone who had the most control of their airplane. So basically, intermediate would become the entry point for pattern. So we'd have to dumb that down so that people could learn to fly their planes.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Jon<o:p></o:p></p><div style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=1 width="100%" noshade style='color:#999999' align=center></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:#999999'>On Friday, January 18, 2019 tim pritchett via NSRCA-discussion <</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:#0000A0'><a href="mailto:tjpritchett@aol.com" target="_blank">tjpritchett@aol.com</a>; <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:#999999'>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><div id="gmail-m_-2513046144860498196yiv7065416740"><div><div id="gmail-m_-2513046144860498196yiv7065416740"><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>On the additional subject of gyros/stabilization use in pattern, we posted a Poll on the D2 facebook page asking:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1D2129;background:white'>So, what would you think about a rules change proposal that allowed gyros in Sportsman and Intermediate, for any plane below 1.8M (70.9") span, and length?</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The results thus far are: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>16 for,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>25 against<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>My comment would be that Intermediate is too competitive for this, and we should/could restrict gyros to Sportsman only in a proposal. Club is not an AMA class, so we can already do anything we want there. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Any other comments? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>You can also join, vote, and comment, or review comments on the page if you prefer: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/NSRCADistrict2/" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/groups/NSRCADistrict2/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'>Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'>Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'>Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'>Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:6.75pt'><img border=0 width=200 height=154 style='width:2.0833in;height:1.6083in' id="_x0000_i1031" src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6513778381_5569cc985d_m.jpg" alt="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6513778381_5569cc985d_m.jpg"><img border=0 width=200 height=136 style='width:2.0833in;height:1.4166in' id="_x0000_i1030" src="https://googledrive.com/host/0B4LOPeyGAgOJUVJmU1dJMVl6WWc/AcademyModelAeronauticsLogo.png" alt="https://googledrive.com/host/0B4LOPeyGAgOJUVJmU1dJMVl6WWc/AcademyModelAeronauticsLogo.png"><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
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