<div dir="auto">Definitely with Stu here. If it makes a guy show up and try it, why should we run then off. If they truly are interested they will go back and practice, but the key is getting them to show up the first time. I have not been to a contest that pilots weren't very welcoming and open to helping which usually sets the hook, but we have to find ways to encourage them to get to the field to try it. Frankly, if we had to hand out candy to all sportsman pilots, why would we not do it if it attracted new pilots. The technology and people are usually good at keeping those with the right personality once they show up. Our problem is getting them to show up. Currently, a lot of the planes that are readily available and seen most often at fields are currently outside our rules, so we need to adapt to let those pilots show up and play too. <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Arch </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 2:35 PM Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p>Agree with the helicopter part but not sure about the second part.</p>
<p>The only way to increase participation is to get more people in a contest. If allowing them to fly ducted fans (or whatever) in sportsman does it then great. If that person enjoys the competition and wants to move forward they will become a better flyer.
Will it make any difference? Who knows. Club class was an attempt at this but it was not offered at every contest. I am sure that there were a few club class flyers that joined our ranks (but I would bet not many). I think diluting the classes with additional
classes when participation is at an all time low may not be the best idea. Sportsman should not be a destination class for anyone. Intermediate might be and should be treated the same as the classes above (Weight allowance already in place)</p>
<p>Stuart C.<br>
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<div class="m_1384517170397404435moz-cite-prefix">On 1/19/2019 1:50 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Pete,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">You can’t compare helicopters with flybarless rotors to airplanes with gyros. It’s a completely different situation. A flybarless helicopter can’t fly without the electronics that essentially replace the flybar – which is what “stabilizes”
and de-sensitizes the rotor. To make an airplane behave in a similar manner you could remove the horizontal or vertical stab or at least make it so small that the airplane would not be stable. As you might imagine, it would be impossible to control without
some form of electronic stabilization (i.e. a gyro) to replace the mechanical stabilizers. This is not the same as adding a gyro to a Pattern airplane, which is already considerably stable to begin with.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What exactly is the impetus behind allowing people to compete in 401 with airplanes that do a lot of the work for them? Is it to make it easier for someone who doesn’t possess fundamental flying skills to compete in 401? BAD IDEA!!! They
have to learn sooner or later. If they can’t fly the 401 sequence unless they have gyros, how do you expect them to progress to 402 (a more challenging sequence that doesn’t allow gyros)? You guys are worried about people leaving Pattern yet I think you just
found a REALLY good way to make that happen!<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">John Pavlick<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cell: 203-417-4971<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width:.9416in;height:.4083in" id="m_1384517170397404435Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:part1.EA379218.27125037@outlook.com" alt="idslogo2" width="90" height="39"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Impact",sans-serif">Integrated Development Services</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> NSRCA-discussion <a class="m_1384517170397404435moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
<nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 18, 2019 4:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jon Lowe <a class="m_1384517170397404435moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
<jonlowe@aol.com></a>; General pattern discussion <a class="m_1384517170397404435moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gryo's in Pattern?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On the face of it, I agree with Jon. That said, I think the same concerns existed in F3C about 5-7 years back, but they started allowing Flybarless system electronics (which are effectively 3D gyros) and their world didn't implode. From
my perspective having flown some Gyro-enabled aircraft (obviously not in competition) the gyro actually buys you VERY little. It makes the lines smoother, but the geometric challenges, centering, throttle control, etc. all apply and are NOT solved by the
gyro. In fact, some things become significantly harder with a gyro (i.e. a stall turn) as the gyro is actively fighting the intended behavior of the plane. This was also the conclusion, IIRC, of the committee that reviewed whether to allow FBL in F3C.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Peter+<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 1:01 PM Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p>This defeats the whole point of the sportsman pattern: to fly straight lines, establish angles, and to put the plane where you want it, not where it wants to go. Most sport fliers can't fly a straight line if their life depends on it. New pattern flyers
are amazed when I make them practice straight and level flight over and over before I left them try maneuvers. After awhile, they see the point.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>We have a guy in our club who flies gyros all the time. When they are on, he can fly beautiful lines, slow rolls, point rolls, etc. Turn them off, and he's all over the sky. Sportsman would be won by someone who could set up their gyros the best, not by
someone who had the most control of their airplane. So basically, intermediate would become the entry point for pattern. So we'd have to dumb that down so that people could learn to fly their planes.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Jon<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#999999">On Friday, January 18, 2019 tim pritchett via NSRCA-discussion <</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#0000a0"><a href="mailto:tjpritchett@aol.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tjpritchett@aol.com</a>;
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#999999">> wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">On the additional subject of gyros/stabilization use in pattern, we posted a Poll on the D2 facebook page asking:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1d2129;background:white">So, what would you think about a rules change proposal that allowed gyros in Sportsman and Intermediate, for
any plane below 1.8M (70.9") span, and length?</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">The results thus far are: <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">16 for,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">25 against<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">My comment would be that Intermediate is too competitive for this, and we should/could restrict gyros to Sportsman only in a proposal.
Club is not an AMA class, so we can already do anything we want there. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Any other comments? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">You can also join, vote, and comment, or review comments on the page if you prefer: <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.75pt">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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