<div dir="ltr">I liked the direction you moved the conversation John.<div>Personally I enjoy trying to learn and perfect the F maneuvers, so wouldn't ask for lower power maneuvers. </div><div>To me, the big problem with the F17 sequence is the Energy needed. If they would just shorten it by a couple of figures, my batteries would be a whole lot happier.</div><div>Dan</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:20 PM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#3333FF">
Watts checking at competitions would be a PITA compared to a voltage
check.<br>
Perhaps the CIAM should address(and reduce) the power requirements
of new F and unknown sequences for F3A.<br>
<br>
The rest of us tend to have max power dialed back a bit.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div class="m_-5197464509796569729moz-cite-prefix">On 11/14/2016 7:05 PM, cahochhalter via
NSRCA-discussion wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Maybe if we promise.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What if we limit watts? But 12s.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="m_-5197464509796569729composer_signature">
<div style="font-size:88%;color:#364f67" dir="auto">Sent from my
Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original message --------<br>
From: Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion <a class="m_-5197464509796569729moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org></a>
<br>
Date: 11/14/16 7:20 PM (GMT-06:00) <br>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <a class="m_-5197464509796569729moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org></a>
<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A <br>
<br>
<div class="m_-5197464509796569729WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Below
is a partial snip of a thread earlier this year on the F3A
discussion list.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The
long and the short of it is that going from 10S to 12S might
help in the short term, but, will be yet another round of
escalation in the long term.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Dave<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
F3A-Discussion [<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us" target="_blank">mailto:f3a-discussion-<wbr>bounces@lists.f3a.us</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Lockhart via F3A-Discussion<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Atwood, Mark' <<a href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target="_blank">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [F3A-Discussion] Rule proposals<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I’ve
been flying pattern since the early 1980s….and have come to
be fond of a couple answers to one question –<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Q
– How much power is enough?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">A
– Way too much.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">A
– More.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">A
– I’ll let you know when I find it.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In
the last 30 years of pattern history, the power used has
always been the most available. Zero exceptions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The
history of power limits as it were –<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Max
engine size – 60 cubic in – everyone ran 60s with pipes (and
many pushed high nitro low oil fuels for more power).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Max
engines size – 60 2C or 120 4C. This was to allow more
diversity, lower noise, “friendlier” power, etc. Didn’t
happen – everyone ended up running more expensive 120 4Cs
(and many pushed high nitro for more power). <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Unlimited
engine size - Again, to allow more diversity, lower stressed
powerplants, cheaper cost, etc. Didn’t happen (again) –
everyone ran a limited number of purpose built more
expensive 2C and engines (and many pushed high nitro for
more power).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Specific
YS evolution – 120, 120AC, 120SC, 140, 140L, 140DZ, 160,
175, 185…….and running 30% nitro the entire history.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Specific
Electric evolution – (really the batteries) – ThunderPower
10s4p8000 4-6C, TP10s4p5300 10-12C, TP10s2p5400 18-20C, then
several generations of 25C up to the current ProLite X (and
similar offerings from other brands). The promise of every
successive generation was more power, lower operating temps,
and longer lifecycles. In just about every instance, more
power was realized (and used)….and operating temps and
lifecycles were not dramatically changed (since about
generation 4 of about 8 generations).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Any
time the opportunity to escalate power (and costs) was
available, it happened.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">All
of Mark’s points are valid IF the power level remains
CONSTANT. IF the power level INCREASES (and it will), the
advantages Mark notes will not be realized…..but the
detriments will be – increased cost to change motors,
chargers, and lipos, and a reduced secondary market to which
the 10S setups can be “recycled”.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The
nature of competition is to push the envelope and exploit
any possible competitive advantage. 12S will be a
competitive advantage, and the power level will go up. I
see no reason why the historical trend of pattern and/or
competitive nature will change. Given a suitable transition
period, the power systems will all be 12S, and just as
stressed as they are now with 10S. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Dave<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Atwood, Mark [<a href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank">mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.<wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 01, 2016 2:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DaveL322 <<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>>;
<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target="_blank">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Derek Koopowitz <<a href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a>>;
Ramsey Don <<a href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank">donramsey@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [F3A-Discussion] Rule proposals<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So to chime in here… <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, Amps kill… but the body has natural
impedance that requires sufficient voltage to push through it.
Right now if you accidentally short a 10S pack, (and I’m
guessing many of us have) we don’t feel the jolt even though
over 200amps have likely passed, but rather we typically just
get burned on the skin (and melt a connector). This is
because the resistance in your skin prevents the amperage from
traveling through you. 50V won’t meaningfully impact that.
Yes, it’s an increase, but not a dangerous one. It’s pretty
universally accepted that 50v DC is safe at any amperage (from
it being lethal) up to and including putting electrodes under
the skin. Not something I’d advise trying.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are a number of strong upsides to
this. We currently run our equipment very hard, and very hot.
Up-ing the voltage by 20% would significantly reduce both and
significantly increase the efficiency and tolerance of the
systems in play. Weight would not be impacted as you would
run lower capacity, higher voltage cells that would weigh
roughly the same, but run cooler, last longer, and provide
equal or longer flight times.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The clear downside as mentioned would be a
bit of retooling for those that want to change. Motor’s have
to be wound differently, so a 12S Pletty is different from a
10S Pletty, though it’s the same motor casing and such, so it
would be plug n play in the airframes. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Batteries we buy pretty steadily just like
we did fuel… so I would imagine most would simply replace
motors when they put together new airplanes and phase in new
batteries as a result. Charges would indeed be a brand new
expense if you don’t currently have a charger that can handle
12S (many do as F3C and many others already run 12S.)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Overall I would be interested in this
simply due to the current excessive wear on our equipment from
the high amperage loads and heat. Running 55amps vs 70amps
reduces the strain on everything all the way down to the gauge
of wire we run.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#65646a">MARK </span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#80bd01">ATWOOD</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#65646a">o.
<a href="tel:%28440%29%20229-2502" value="+14402292502" target="_blank">(440) 229-2502</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#65646a">c.
<a href="tel:%28216%29%20316-2489" value="+12163162489" target="_blank">(216) 316-2489</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#65646a">e.
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#65646a">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#65646a">Paragon
Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#65646a">5900
Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#65646a"><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">www.paragon-inc.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:2.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#65646a"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#65646a">Powering
The Digital Experience</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
DaveL322 [<a class="m_-5197464509796569729moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 11, 2016 1:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> S. McNickle <a class="m_-5197464509796569729moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nelson_jett@comcast.net" target="_blank"><nelson_jett@comcast.net></a>;
General pattern discussion <a class="m_-5197464509796569729moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org></a>;
Larry Diamond <a class="m_-5197464509796569729moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" target="_blank"><ldiamond@diamondrc.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hansen, Ron <a class="m_-5197464509796569729moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com" target="_blank"><rcpilot@wowway.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">100% correct.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I previously made a lengthy post to the
F3A mailing list and will repost to this list when I am home
after the weekend (f3p contest).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5197464509796569729composer_signature">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#575757">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#575757"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#575757">Dave<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#575757"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#575757">Sent from my
Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note5.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_-5197464509796569729mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
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