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I suppose they operate on the honor system?<br>
World championships don't work that way.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/15/2016 4:51 AM, Patternpilot One
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SN1PR10MB076673D782AE6BA02AD97499F8BF0@SN1PR10MB0766.namprd10.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
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<div>Senior Pattern Association has a watts limit, no problems. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="composer_signature">
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:88%; color:#364f67">Sent from
my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original message --------<br>
From: John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <br>
Date: 11/14/16 11:21 PM (GMT-05:00) <br>
To: cahochhalter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cahochhalter@yahoo.com"><cahochhalter@yahoo.com></a>, General pattern
discussion <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A <br>
<br>
<div>Watts checking at competitions would be a PITA compared to a
voltage check.<br>
Perhaps the CIAM should address(and reduce) the power
requirements of new F and unknown sequences for F3A.<br>
<br>
The rest of us tend to have max power dialed back a bit.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/14/2016 7:05 PM, cahochhalter
via NSRCA-discussion wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Maybe if we promise.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What if we limit watts? But 12s.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="composer_signature">
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:88%; color:#364f67">Sent
from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original message --------<br>
From: Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <br>
Date: 11/14/16 7:20 PM (GMT-06:00) <br>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A <br>
<br>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Below is a partial snip of a thread
earlier this year on the F3A discussion list.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">The long and the short of it is that
going from 10S to 12S might help in the short term, but,
will be yet another round of escalation in the long
term.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Dave</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
F3A-Discussion [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us">mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Lockhart via F3A-Discussion<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Atwood, Mark' <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</a>>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [F3A-Discussion] Rule proposals</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">I’ve been flying pattern since the early
1980s….and have come to be fond of a couple answers to
one question –</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Q – How much power is enough?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">A – Way too much.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">A – More.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">A – I’ll let you know when I find it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">In the last 30 years of pattern history,
the power used has always been the most available. Zero
exceptions.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">The history of power limits as it were –</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Max engine size – 60 cubic in – everyone
ran 60s with pipes (and many pushed high nitro low oil
fuels for more power).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Max engines size – 60 2C or 120 4C. This
was to allow more diversity, lower noise, “friendlier”
power, etc. Didn’t happen – everyone ended up running
more expensive 120 4Cs (and many pushed high nitro for
more power). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Unlimited engine size - Again, to allow
more diversity, lower stressed powerplants, cheaper
cost, etc. Didn’t happen (again) – everyone ran a
limited number of purpose built more expensive 2C and
engines (and many pushed high nitro for more power).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Specific YS evolution – 120, 120AC,
120SC, 140, 140L, 140DZ, 160, 175, 185…….and running 30%
nitro the entire history.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Specific Electric evolution – (really the
batteries) – ThunderPower 10s4p8000 4-6C, TP10s4p5300
10-12C, TP10s2p5400 18-20C, then several generations of
25C up to the current ProLite X (and similar offerings
from other brands). The promise of every successive
generation was more power, lower operating temps, and
longer lifecycles. In just about every instance, more
power was realized (and used)….and operating temps and
lifecycles were not dramatically changed (since about
generation 4 of about 8 generations).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Any time the opportunity to escalate
power (and costs) was available, it happened.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">All of Mark’s points are valid IF the
power level remains CONSTANT. IF the power level
INCREASES (and it will), the advantages Mark notes will
not be realized…..but the detriments will be – increased
cost to change motors, chargers, and lipos, and a
reduced secondary market to which the 10S setups can be
“recycled”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">The nature of competition is to push the
envelope and exploit any possible competitive
advantage. 12S will be a competitive advantage, and the
power level will go up. I see no reason why the
historical trend of pattern and/or competitive nature
will change. Given a suitable transition period, the
power systems will all be 12S, and just as stressed as
they are now with 10S.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D">Dave</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Atwood,
Mark [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 01, 2016 2:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DaveL322 <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Derek Koopowitz <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a>>;
Ramsey Don <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com">donramsey@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [F3A-Discussion] Rule proposals</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So to chime in here… </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, Amps kill… but the body has
natural impedance that requires sufficient voltage to push
through it. Right now if you accidentally short a 10S
pack, (and I’m guessing many of us have) we don’t feel the
jolt even though over 200amps have likely passed, but
rather we typically just get burned on the skin (and melt
a connector). This is because the resistance in your skin
prevents the amperage from traveling through you. 50V
won’t meaningfully impact that. Yes, it’s an increase,
but not a dangerous one. It’s pretty universally
accepted that 50v DC is safe at any amperage (from it
being lethal) up to and including putting electrodes under
the skin. Not something I’d advise trying.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are a number of strong upsides to
this. We currently run our equipment very hard, and very
hot. Up-ing the voltage by 20% would significantly reduce
both and significantly increase the efficiency and
tolerance of the systems in play. Weight would not be
impacted as you would run lower capacity, higher voltage
cells that would weigh roughly the same, but run cooler,
last longer, and provide equal or longer flight times.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The clear downside as mentioned would
be a bit of retooling for those that want to change.
Motor’s have to be wound differently, so a 12S Pletty is
different from a 10S Pletty, though it’s the same motor
casing and such, so it would be plug n play in the
airframes. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Batteries we buy pretty steadily just
like we did fuel… so I would imagine most would simply
replace motors when they put together new airplanes and
phase in new batteries as a result. Charges would indeed
be a brand new expense if you don’t currently have a
charger that can handle 12S (many do as F3C and many
others already run 12S.)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Overall I would be interested in this
simply due to the current excessive wear on our equipment
from the high amperage loads and heat. Running 55amps vs
70amps reduces the strain on everything all the way down
to the gauge of wire we run.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#65646A">MARK </span></b><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#80BD01">ATWOOD</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#65646A">o.
(440) 229-2502</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#65646A">c.
(216) 316-2489</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#65646A">e.
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#65646A">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#65646A">Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#65646A">5900
Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#65646A"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/"><span
style="color:purple">www.paragon-inc.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:2.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#65646A"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#65646A">Powering The Digital Experience</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
DaveL322 [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 11, 2016 1:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> S. McNickle <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:nelson_jett@comcast.net">
<nelson_jett@comcast.net></a>; General
pattern discussion <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>;
Larry Diamond <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">
<ldiamond@diamondrc.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hansen, Ron <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com">
<rcpilot@wowway.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">100% correct.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I previously made a lengthy post to
the F3A mailing list and will repost to this list when I
am home after the weekend (f3p contest).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="composer_signature">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:#575757">Regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:#575757"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:#575757">Dave</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:#575757"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:#575757">Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy
Note5.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
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