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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>At some point the plane is going to be horizontal at times but the overall flight path I wou<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jas via NSRCA-discussion<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> cahochhalter; General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Wouldn't it be horizontal at two points (but on a different plain) ?<br><br>Sent from my iP<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:16 PM, cahochhalter via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Correct as I read since the plane is climbing nose high throughout the roll.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You agree?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div id="composer_signature"><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#575757'>Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br>-------- Original message --------<br>From: "Dr. Michael Harrison, DDS via NSRCA-discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br>Date: 08/26/2015 2:06 PM (GMT-06:00) <br>To: 'Don Ramsey' <<a href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com">donramsey@gmail.com</a>>, 'General pattern discussion' <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you go by the absolute description in the rule book there is no call for horizontal in the barrel roll. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> NSRCA-discussion [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 26, 2015 5:15 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 style='border-collapse:collapse'><tr><td style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#141823'>Clarification for F-17.07 "Barrel Roll" by Michael Ramel: <br><br>"At first, please recall the manoeuvre description as in the Sporting Code: <br><br>F-17.07 Barrel-Roll <br><br>From upright, pull through a 1/8 loop into a 45° upline, perform a barrel-roll with 45° spiral pitch, perform a 45° upline, push through a 1/8 loop, exit upright. <br><br>You first pull into a 45° upline, then at mid level you start to perform a full roll with the flight path going around a horizontal cylinder in a spiral (as the thread of a screw in a 45° pitch). <br><br>Assumed you fly from right to left performing the barrel roll into right direction: <br><br>From low level, the aircraft pulls upright in a 45° upline first, then will be in a knife-edge (right wing down) position after the first 1/4 of the roll heading away from you in a 45° angle seen from above, then it is inverted on a 45° downline after the second 1/4 of the roll, then in a knife-edge position (right wing up) after the third 1/4 of the roll heading towards you in a 45° angle seen from above, finally it is upright again in a 45° upline after the fourth 1/4 of the roll as to finish the manoeuvre on high level. <br><br>You have seen this barrel roll many times in show flight performances when ie. one aircraft is flying on a level line, while another aircraft spirals around it in one or more barrel rolls. However, for F3A this manoeuvre is precisely described and brakes down to the various geometric reference points."</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 style='border-collapse:collapse'><tr><td valign=top style='padding:0in 7.5pt 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="https://www.facebook.com/n/?photo.php&fbid=1002089093145841&set=gm.760492524072687&type=1&relevant_count=1&aref=1440577829877657&medium=email&mid=760492524072687&n_m=donramsey%40gmail.com"><span style='color:#3B5998;border:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt;text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=90 height=55 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:" alt="https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/s130x130/11921665_1002089093145841_596662265647801978_n.jpg?oh=b29eab8bc2566c2a69a48c5ad60679b4&oe=5668B71A"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> NSRCA-discussion [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 23, 2015 11:26 AM<br><b>To:</b> Ed Alt; NSRCA List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Perhaps a barrel roll isn’t the best name for this maneuver – I would call it a slow wave roll instead. There are very clear areas of judging criteria to look for in this maneuver…. First the pull to a 45 up line, the knife edge view of the plane at the top radius of the 45 up line, the inverted downline, the knife edge on the bottom radius and the completion (upright) view of the plane on the 45 up line before a push to level flight. Since this roll would have to be flown slowly, the difficulty is pretty high. Obviously ensuring that all the radii are the same as well.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>NSRCA-discussion on behalf of NSRCA List<br><b>Reply-To: </b>Ed Alt, NSRCA List<br><b>Date: </b>Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 5:35 AM<br><b>To: </b>NSRCA List<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I'm not sure , but after 100 years or so, it seems that the barrel roll may have a new definition. This appears to require that the model skid around the entire rotation, which is not really how a barrel roll is typically done as far as I know. I believe that you would normally do one mainly with simultaneous pitch and roll inputs, and maybe touches of rudder to keep that coordinated, in much the same way as a coordinated turn would be done in a full scale aircraft to keep the turn & bank indicator's ball centered. As a result, it would present itself as if the aircraft were traveling along the inside of a cylinder with both of it's main gear wheels always in contact with its inner surface, hence the name barrel roll. Executed this way, you could do that Bob Hoover demonstration of keeping a glass of some liquid perfectly still, resting on top of the instrument panel.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>This definition seems to be more of a variation on an integrated roll, and as a result you would expect to see the tail pointed </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>at perhaps a 45 deg yaw angle at one point (when roll angle = 90 deg), and the nose yawed at you 45 deg at another (when roll angle = 180 deg). And I think that as a result it would also mean that the wing tip in the direction of the roll would always be in contact with the inner surface of the imaginary cylinder, instead of both wheels. Am I visualizing that correctly? It seems like it would be tricky to judge accurately.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Ed</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 23:10:49 -0700<br>To: <a href="mailto:underdw@gmail.com">underdw@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hopefully this helps…</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><img border=0 width=995 height=104 id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:"></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><img border=0 width=1148 height=860 id="_x0000_i1028" src="cid:"></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><img border=0 width=1147 height=861 id="_x0000_i1029" src="cid:"></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>NSRCA-discussion on behalf of NSRCA List<br><b>Reply-To: </b>Daniel Underkofler, NSRCA List<br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 6:21 PM<br><b>To: </b>NSRCA List<br><b>Subject: </b>[NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>In F17 there is a cryptic aresti symbol that is described in the figure description as a barrel roll. Will somebody please describe this in more detail and what control inputs will obtain the required result?</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Thanks, Dan</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><image001.jpg><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><image002.png><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><image003.png><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><image004.png><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>