<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Yep, that's what I saw too. If it can be done without rudder, I would like to see that.<br><br><br></div><div><br>On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Daniel Underkofler via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">I had a few cracks at it this week and once obtained what I thought "they" were looking for. I felt that rudder was needed (can't do it with just aileron and elevator) to enter the spiral as well as to carry through the KE hump portions.<div>Now.... on to the horizontal Immelmann....</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 2:54 PM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#3333FF">
You start with an attitude of 45 degrees nose up. You are going to
fly on the surface of a tube with the main axis horizontal as shown
in the powerpoint and the starting point at the side of the tube. In
order to do a single roll on the surface of the tube, you will be in
level flight knifeedge at the top of the tube, continuing on around
to the far side of the tube you will now be pitched down at 45
degrees to maintain your position on the surface of the tube.
Continuing on around, when you reach the bottom, you will once again
be level flight knife edge. One more quadrant of rolling and you
will once again be at the starting point on the tube but displaced
forward and once again at 45 degrees up attitude.<br>
If you pitch to 45 as specified, put in aileron for a slow roll and
add some elevator and hold them, this will all happen automatically.
Try it. The amount of aileron and elevator plus the relationship
between them will define the size of the tube. The spiral pitch is
defined by the initial entry angle of 45 degrees.<br>
<br>
Go out and try it. It's easier to do than to judge. And it's really
a stupid maneuver.<br>
<br>
<div>On 8/26/2015 1:16 PM, cahochhalter via
NSRCA-discussion wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>
Correct as I read since the plane is climbing nose high throughout the roll. You agree?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: "Dr. Michael Harrison, DDS via NSRCA-discussion" <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
Date: 08/26/2015 2:06 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: 'Don Ramsey' <a href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank"><donramsey@gmail.com></a>, 'General pattern discussion' <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll
If you go by the absolute description in the rule book there is no call for horizontal in the barrel roll. From: NSRCA-discussion [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 5:15 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll Clarification for F-17.07 "Barrel Roll" by Michael Ramel:
"At first, please recall the manoeuvre description as in the Sporting Code:
F-17.07 Barrel-Roll
From upright, pull through a 1/8 loop into a 45° upline, perform a barrel-roll with 45° spiral pitch, perform a 45° upline, push through a 1/8 loop, exit upright.
You first pull into a 45° upline, then at mid level you start to perform a full roll with the flight path going around a horizontal cylinder in a spiral (as the thread of a screw in a 45° pitch).
Assumed you fly from right to left performing the barrel roll into right direction:
From low level, the aircraft pulls upright in a 45° upline first, then will be in a knife-edge (right wing down) position after the first 1/4 of the roll heading away from you in a 45° angle seen from above, then it is inverted on a 45° downline after the second 1/4 of the roll, then in a knife-edge position (right wing up) after the third 1/4 of the roll heading towards you in a 45° angle seen from above, finally it is upright again in a 45° upline after the fourth 1/4 of the roll as to finish the manoeuvre on high level.
You have seen this barrel roll many times in show flight performances when ie. one aircraft is flying on a level line, while another aircraft spirals around it in one or more barrel rolls. However, for F3A this manoeuvre is precisely described and brakes down to the various geometric reference points." From: NSRCA-discussion [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 11:26 AM
To: Ed Alt; NSRCA List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll Perhaps a barrel roll isn’t the best name for this maneuver – I would call it a slow wave roll instead. There are very clear areas of judging criteria to look for in this maneuver…. First the pull to a 45 up line, the knife edge view of the plane at the top radius of the 45 up line, the inverted downline, the knife edge on the bottom radius and the completion (upright) view of the plane on the 45 up line before a push to level flight. Since this roll would have to be flown slowly, the difficulty is pretty high. Obviously ensuring that all the radii are the same as well. From: NSRCA-discussion on behalf of NSRCA List
Reply-To: Ed Alt, NSRCA List
Date: Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 5:35 AM
To: NSRCA List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll I'm not sure , but after 100 years or so, it seems that the barrel roll may have a new definition. This appears to require that the model skid around the entire rotation, which is not really how a barrel roll is typically done as far as I know. I believe that you would normally do one mainly with simultaneous pitch and roll inputs, and maybe touches of rudder to keep that coordinated, in much the same way as a coordinated turn would be done in a full scale aircraft to keep the turn & bank indicator's ball centered. As a result, it would present itself as if the aircraft were traveling along the inside of a cylinder with both of it's main gear wheels always in contact with its inner surface, hence the name barrel roll. Executed this way, you could do that Bob Hoover demonstration of keeping a glass of some liquid perfectly still, resting on top of the instrument panel. This definition seems to be more of a variation on an integ
rated roll, and as a result you would expect to see the tail pointed at perhaps a 45 deg yaw angle at one point (when roll angle = 90 deg), and the nose yawed at you 45 deg at another (when roll angle = 180 deg). And I think that as a result it would also mean that the wing tip in the direction of the roll would always be in contact with the inner surface of the imaginary cylinder, instead of both wheels. Am I visualizing that correctly? It seems like it would be tricky to judge accurately. Ed Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 23:10:49 -0700
To: <a href="mailto:underdw@gmail.com" target="_blank">underdw@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.orgHopefully" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.orgHopefully</a> this helps… From: NSRCA-discussion on behalf of NSRCA List
Reply-To: Daniel Underkofler, NSRCA List
Date: Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 6:21 PM
To: NSRCA List
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll In F17 there is a cryptic aresti symbol that is described in the figure description as a barrel roll. Will somebody please describe this in more detail and what control inputs will obtain the required result? Thanks, Dan_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a>
_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________</a> NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></pre>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<div>Correct as I read since the plane is climbing nose high
throughout the roll.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You agree?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-size:85%;color:#575757">Sent from my Verizon
Wireless 4G LTE smartphone</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original message --------<br>
From: "Dr. Michael Harrison, DDS via NSRCA-discussion"
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <br>
Date: 08/26/2015 2:06 PM (GMT-06:00) <br>
To: 'Don Ramsey' <a href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank"><donramsey@gmail.com></a>, 'General pattern
discussion' <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll <br>
<br>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If
you go by the absolute description in the rule book there is
no call for horizontal in the barrel roll. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
NSRCA-discussion
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 26, 2015 5:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#141823">Clarification
for F-17.07 "Barrel Roll" by Michael Ramel: <br>
<br>
"At first, please recall the manoeuvre description
as in the Sporting Code: <br>
<br>
F-17.07 Barrel-Roll <br>
<br>
From upright, pull through a 1/8 loop into a 45°
upline, perform a barrel-roll with 45° spiral pitch,
perform a 45° upline, push through a 1/8 loop, exit
upright. <br>
<br>
You first pull into a 45° upline, then at mid level
you start to perform a full roll with the flight
path going around a horizontal cylinder in a spiral
(as the thread of a screw in a 45° pitch). <br>
<br>
Assumed you fly from right to left performing the
barrel roll into right direction: <br>
<br>
From low level, the aircraft pulls upright in a 45°
upline first, then will be in a knife-edge (right
wing down) position after the first 1/4 of the roll
heading away from you in a 45° angle seen from
above, then it is inverted on a 45° downline after
the second 1/4 of the roll, then in a knife-edge
position (right wing up) after the third 1/4 of the
roll heading towards you in a 45° angle seen from
above, finally it is upright again in a 45° upline
after the fourth 1/4 of the roll as to finish the
manoeuvre on high level. <br>
<br>
You have seen this barrel roll many times in show
flight performances when ie. one aircraft is flying
on a level line, while another aircraft spirals
around it in one or more barrel rolls. However, for
F3A this manoeuvre is precisely described and brakes
down to the various geometric reference points."</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<table style="border-collapse:collapse" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 7.5pt 0in 0in" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/n/?photo.php&fbid=1002089093145841&set=gm.760492524072687&type=1&relevant_count=1&aref=1440577829877657&medium=email&mid=760492524072687&n_m=donramsey%40gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#3b5998;border:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt;text-decoration:none"><img alt="https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/s130x130/11921665_1002089093145841_596662265647801978_n.jpg?oh=b29eab8bc2566c2a69a48c5ad60679b4&oe=5668B71A" border="0" height="55" width="90" src="cid:"></span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in" valign="top"><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
NSRCA-discussion [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Derek Koopowitz via
NSRCA-discussion<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 23, 2015 11:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ed Alt; NSRCA List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Perhaps
a barrel roll isn’t the best name for this maneuver – I
would call it a slow wave roll instead. There are very
clear areas of judging criteria to look for in this
maneuver…. First the pull to a 45 up line, the knife
edge view of the plane at the top radius of the 45 up
line, the inverted downline, the knife edge on the
bottom radius and the completion (upright) view of the
plane on the 45 up line before a push to level flight.
Since this roll would have to be flown slowly, the
difficulty is pretty high. Obviously ensuring that all
the radii are the same as well.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">NSRCA-discussion
on behalf of NSRCA List<br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>Ed Alt, NSRCA List<br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 5:35 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>NSRCA List<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I'm
not sure , but after 100 years or so, it seems that
the barrel roll may have a new definition. This
appears to require that the model skid around the
entire rotation, which is not really how a barrel
roll is typically done as far as I know. I believe
that you would normally do one mainly with
simultaneous pitch and roll inputs, and maybe
touches of rudder to keep that coordinated, in much
the same way as a coordinated turn would be done
in a full scale aircraft to keep the turn & bank
indicator's ball centered. As a result, it would
present itself as if the aircraft were traveling
along the inside of a cylinder with both of it's
main gear wheels always in contact with its inner
surface, hence the name barrel roll. Executed this
way, you could do that Bob Hoover demonstration of
keeping a glass of some liquid perfectly still,
resting on top of the instrument panel.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">This
definition seems to be more of a variation on an
integrated roll, and as a result you would expect
to see the tail pointed </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">at
perhaps a 45 deg yaw angle at one point (when roll
angle = 90 deg), and the nose yawed at you 45 deg
at another (when roll angle = 180 deg). And I
think that as a result it would also mean that the
wing tip in the direction of the roll would always
be in contact with the inner surface of the
imaginary cylinder, instead of both wheels. Am I
visualizing that correctly? It seems like it
would be tricky to judge accurately.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Ed</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Date:
Sat, 22 Aug 2015 23:10:49 -0700<br>
To: <a href="mailto:underdw@gmail.com" target="_blank">underdw@gmail.com</a>;
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Hopefully
this helps…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><img border="0" height="104" width="995" src="cid:"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><img border="0" height="860" width="1148" src="cid:"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><img border="0" height="861" width="1147" src="cid:"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">NSRCA-discussion
on behalf of NSRCA List<br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>Daniel Underkofler, NSRCA List<br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 6:21 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>NSRCA List<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel
roll<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">In
F17 there is a cryptic aresti symbol that is
described in the figure description as a barrel
roll. Will somebody please describe this in more
detail and what control inputs will obtain the
required result?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks,
Dan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
_______________________________________________
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<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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