<html><body><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><div aria-label="Compose body">Dave, if you could find a suck..., er, a person to bet against you, you'd win that bet in a heartbeat!!!</div><div><br></div><div><span name="x"></span><span class="signature-truncate"><span class="signature-truncate"><div style="text-align: center;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span class="signature-truncate"><span class="signature-truncate"><span class="signature-truncate"><span style="color: #8b8b8b;"><span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-size: 12px;"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><span style="font-size: 10px;"><em><strong><span style="font-size: 14px;">Phil Spelt, KCRC Emeritus, Secretary<br>AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member<br>SPA L-18, Board Member<br>(865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541c</span><br></strong></em></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><span class="signature-truncate"><span class="signature-truncate"><span class="signature-truncate"><span class="signature-truncate"><span class="signature-truncate"></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></span><span name="x"></span><br></div><br><hr id="zwchr"><div style="color:#000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From: </b>"DaveL322 via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br><b>To: </b>"John Fuqua" <johnfuqua@embarqmail.com>, "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, August 23, 2015 8:00:36 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br><div><br></div><div>Not long ago.....we had a fighter turn....it included a half outside loop....not something a fighter pilot would ever choose to do.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm betting the full scale techniques might not be too applicable to our "barrel roll".</div><div><br></div><div id="composer_signature"><div style="font-size:85%;color:#575757" data-mce-style="font-size: 85%; color: #575757;">Regards,</div><div style="font-size:85%;color:#575757" data-mce-style="font-size: 85%; color: #575757;"><br></div><div style="font-size:85%;color:#575757" data-mce-style="font-size: 85%; color: #575757;">Dave</div><div style="font-size:85%;color:#575757" data-mce-style="font-size: 85%; color: #575757;"><br></div><div style="font-size:85%;color:#575757" data-mce-style="font-size: 85%; color: #575757;">Please pardon any spelling errors or brevity.....Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note® 3</div></div><br><div><br></div>-------- Original message --------<br>From: John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> <br>Date: 08/23/2015 6:58 PM (GMT-05:00) <br>To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> <br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll <br><div><br></div><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D" data-mce-style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">We need a full scale aerobatic pilot to chip in. I always thought a barrel roll was an aileron roll with the application of positive G. ie you gotta add elevator during the roll which will give you the barrel look.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D" data-mce-style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" data-mce-style="border: none; border-top: solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';"> NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 23, 2015 11:26 AM<br><b>To:</b> Ed Alt; NSRCA List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Perhaps a barrel roll isn’t the best name for this maneuver – I would call it a slow wave roll instead. There are very clear areas of judging criteria to look for in this maneuver…. First the pull to a 45 up line, the knife edge view of the plane at the top radius of the 45 up line, the inverted downline, the knife edge on the bottom radius and the completion (upright) view of the plane on the 45 up line before a push to level flight. Since this roll would have to be flown slowly, the difficulty is pretty high. Obviously ensuring that all the radii are the same as well.</span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" data-mce-style="border: none; border-top: solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">NSRCA-discussion on behalf of NSRCA List<br><b>Reply-To: </b>Ed Alt, NSRCA List<br><b>Date: </b>Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 5:35 AM<br><b>To: </b>NSRCA List<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">I'm not sure , but after 100 years or so, it seems that the barrel roll may have a new definition. This appears to require that the model skid around the entire rotation, which is not really how a barrel roll is typically done as far as I know. I believe that you would normally do one mainly with simultaneous pitch and roll inputs, and maybe touches of rudder to keep that coordinated, in much the same way as a coordinated turn would be done in a full scale aircraft to keep the turn & bank indicator's ball centered. As a result, it would present itself as if the aircraft were traveling along the inside of a cylinder with both of it's main gear wheels always in contact with its inner surface, hence the name barrel roll. Executed this way, you could do that Bob Hoover demonstration of keeping a glass of some liquid perfectly still, resting on top of the instrument panel.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"></span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">This definition seems to be more of a variation on an integrated roll, and as a result you would expect to see the tail pointed </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">at perhaps a 45 deg yaw angle at one point (when roll angle = 90 deg), and the nose yawed at you 45 deg at another (when roll angle = 180 deg). And I think that as a result it would also mean that the wing tip in the direction of the roll would always be in contact with the inner surface of the imaginary cylinder, instead of both wheels. Am I visualizing that correctly? It seems like it would be tricky to judge accurately.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Ed</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" data-mce-style="text-align: center;" align="center"><hr id="stopSpelling" align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt" data-mce-style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 23:10:49 -0700<br>To: <a href="mailto:underdw@gmail.com" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:underdw@gmail.com">underdw@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span><br data-mce-bogus="1"></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Hopefully this helps…</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"><img id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image001.png@01D0DDCD.61BFD360" data-mce-src="cid:image001.png@01D0DDCD.61BFD360" height="104" border="0" width="995"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"><img id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image002.png@01D0DDCD.61BFD360" data-mce-src="cid:image002.png@01D0DDCD.61BFD360" height="860" border="0" width="1148"></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"><img id="_x0000_i1028" src="cid:image003.png@01D0DDCD.61BFD360" data-mce-src="cid:image003.png@01D0DDCD.61BFD360" height="861" border="0" width="1147"></span></p></div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" data-mce-style="border: none; border-top: solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">NSRCA-discussion on behalf of NSRCA List<br><b>Reply-To: </b>Daniel Underkofler, NSRCA List<br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 6:21 PM<br><b>To: </b>NSRCA List<br><b>Subject: </b>[NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">In F17 there is a cryptic aresti symbol that is described in the figure description as a barrel roll. Will somebody please describe this in more detail and what control inputs will obtain the required result?</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">Thanks, Dan</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank" data-mce-href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank" data-mce-href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><br data-mce-bogus="1"></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black" data-mce-style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: black;">_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank" data-mce-href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><br data-mce-bogus="1"></p></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</div><div><br></div></div></body></html>