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I don't think they are describing pictorially what they want.<br>
<br>
If you are going to fly the inside of a tube with a spiral pitch of
45 degrees, you need to enter the tube parallel to the surface, not
at an attitude of 45 degrees to the centerline of the tube.<br>
Also if you are flying a barrel roll with a vertical displacement of
25 meters up and down, then you must go in and out 25 meters as
well. How do you judge that?<br>
<br>
Despite what they say, it appears that you need to fly this maneuver
in a plane as shown in the first slide, not the inside of a tube as
in the second slide. Then entering at 45 degrees make perfect sense
and requires coordination of all four controls to do well.... but
it's not a barrel roll.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/23/2015 7:33 AM, Ed Alt via
NSRCA-discussion wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Phil:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I couldn't really tell either, so I just tried to fly it
with a stick plane. Take the example that starts with the 45
up line. I can't see how you would avoid departing upwards
from the 45 deg line and simultaneously get the corkscrew
shape started unless the maneuver was initiated with
simultaneous aileron, rudder and elevator. I think the
rudder has to be enough to immediately skid the model and
start bringing the nose down as positive pitch input helps get
the corkscrew angle set. I guess I'll try just for fun later
today.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ed<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 13:15:14 +0000<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chuenkan@comcast.net">chuenkan@comcast.net</a><br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>
<br>
<div style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">
<div aria-label="Compose body">If FAI/NSCRA have come up
with a new definition of a barrel roll, then I can't be of
any help. However, to do a "regular" old barrel roll,
just do what my aerobatics student does: He is trying to
learn to do 3 Horizontal Rolls (the "3 horribles). He can
do one axial roll beautifully; he can often get 2 pretty
good ones; but 3??? He gets the elevator miss-timed and
does a very good barrel roll. So, the idea of adding
elevator (plus maybe some rudder) should produce a barrel
roll -- but I don't know if it would fit the NSRCA
definition if said roll. From the posts, I can't tell
what is required. Ah, yes, I love teaching -- that's why
I gave up college tenure and went to do laboratory
research. lol<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span></span><span class="ecxsignature-truncate"><span
class="ecxsignature-truncate">
<div style="text-align:center;">
<div style="text-align:left;"><span
class="ecxsignature-truncate"><span
class="ecxsignature-truncate"><span
class="ecxsignature-truncate"><span
style="color:#8b8b8b;"><span
style="font-size:13px;"><span
style="font-size:12px;"><span
style="font-size:11px;"><span
style="font-size:10px;"><em><strong><span
style="font-size:14px;">Phil
Spelt, KCRC Emeritus,
Secretary<br>
AMA 1294, Scientific Leader
Member<br>
SPA L-18, Board Member<br>
(865) 435-1476v (865)
604-0541c</span><br>
</strong></em></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
<span class="ecxsignature-truncate"><span
class="ecxsignature-truncate"><span
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class="ecxsignature-truncate"><span
class="ecxsignature-truncate"></span></span></span></span></span></div>
</span></span><span></span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<hr id="ecxzwchr">
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data-mce-style="color: #000; font-weight: normal;
font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family:
Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Ed
Alt via NSRCA-discussion"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b>To: </b>"NSRCA List"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Sunday, August 23, 2015 8:35:05 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>
<div><br>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="font-size:12pt;"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;">I'm not sure</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
12pt;"> , but a</span><span style="font-size:12pt;"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;">fter 100 years or
so, it seems that the barrel roll may have a new
definition. This appears to require that the model
skid around the entire rotation, which is not really
how a barrel roll is typically done as far as I
know. I believe that you would normally do one
mainly with simultaneous pitch and roll inputs, and
maybe touches of rudder to keep that coordinated, in
much the same way as a coordinated turn would be
done in a full scale aircraft to keep the turn &
bank indicator's ball centered. As a result, it
would present itself as if the aircraft were
traveling along the inside of a cylinder with both
of it's main gear wheels always in contact with its
inner surface, hence the name barrel roll. Executed
this way, you could do that Bob Hoover demonstration
of keeping a glass of some liquid perfectly still,
resting on top of the instrument panel.</span></div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This definition seems to be more of a variation
on an integrated roll, and as a result you would
expect to see the tail pointed <span
style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
12pt;">at perhaps</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
12pt;"> a 45 deg yaw angle at one point (when roll
angle = 90 deg), and the nose yawed at you 45 deg
at another (when roll angle = 180 deg). And I
think that as a result it would also mean that the
wing tip in the direction of the roll would always
be in contact with the inner surface of the
imaginary cylinder, instead of </span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
12pt;">both wheels.</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
12pt;"> Am I visualizing that correctly? It
seems like it would be tricky to judge accurately.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt;"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt;"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;">Ed</span></div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<hr id="ecxstopSpelling">Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015
23:10:49 -0700<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:underdw@gmail.com">underdw@gmail.com</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hopefully this helps…</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><img
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width="1148.000000"></div>
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<div><img
src="cid:part3.07060803.00010305@comcast.net"
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height="861.000000" width="1147.000000"></div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:12pt;text-align:left;color:black;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium
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border-right: medium none; padding-top: 3pt;"><span
style="font-weight:bold;"
data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">From: </span>
NSRCA-discussion on behalf of NSRCA List<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold;"
data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">Reply-To: </span>
Daniel Underkofler, NSRCA List<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold;"
data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">Date: </span>
Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 6:21 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold;"
data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">To: </span>
NSRCA List<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold;"
data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">Subject: </span>
[NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">In F17 there is a cryptic aresti symbol
that is described in the figure description as a
barrel roll. Will somebody please describe this in
more detail and what control inputs will obtain the
required result?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks, Dan</div>
</div>
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