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    I don't think they are describing pictorially what they want.<br>
    <br>
    If you are going to fly the inside of a tube with a spiral pitch of
    45 degrees, you need to enter the tube parallel to the surface, not
    at an attitude of 45 degrees to the centerline of the tube.<br>
    Also if you are flying a barrel roll with a vertical displacement of
    25 meters up and down, then you must go in and out 25 meters as
    well. How do you judge that?<br>
    <br>
    Despite what they say, it appears that you need to fly this maneuver
    in a plane as shown in the first slide, not the inside of a tube as
    in the second slide. Then entering at 45 degrees make perfect sense
    and requires coordination of all four controls to do well.... but
    it's not a barrel roll.<br>
    <br>
    John<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/23/2015 7:33 AM, Ed Alt via
      NSRCA-discussion wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:SNT146-W24DC2EEEDAC476685A4412E8630@phx.gbl"
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      <div dir="ltr">Phil:
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I couldn't really tell either, so I just tried to fly it
          with a stick plane.  Take the example that starts with the 45
          up line.  I can't see how you would avoid departing upwards
          from the 45 deg line and simultaneously get the corkscrew
          shape started unless the maneuver was initiated with
          simultaneous aileron, rudder and elevator.   I think the
          rudder has to be enough to immediately skid the model and
          start bringing the nose down as positive pitch input helps get
          the corkscrew angle set.  I guess I'll try just for fun later
          today.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Ed<br>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div>
          <hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 13:15:14 +0000<br>
          From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chuenkan@comcast.net">chuenkan@comcast.net</a><br>
          To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">ed_alt@hotmail.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
          Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>
          <br>
          <div style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">
            <div aria-label="Compose body">If FAI/NSCRA have come up
              with a new definition of a barrel roll, then I can't be of
              any help.  However, to do a "regular" old barrel roll,
              just do what my aerobatics student does:  He is trying to
              learn to do 3 Horizontal Rolls (the "3 horribles).  He can
              do one axial roll beautifully; he can often get 2 pretty
              good ones; but 3???  He gets the elevator miss-timed and
              does a very good barrel roll.  So, the idea of adding
              elevator (plus maybe some rudder) should produce a barrel
              roll -- but I don't know if it would fit the NSRCA
              definition if said roll.  From the posts, I can't tell
              what is required.  Ah, yes, I love teaching -- that's why
              I gave up college tenure and went to do laboratory
              research.  lol<br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><span></span><span class="ecxsignature-truncate"><span
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                                    style="font-size:11px;"><span
                                      style="font-size:10px;"><em><strong><span
                                            style="font-size:14px;">Phil
                                            Spelt, KCRC Emeritus,
                                            Secretary<br>
                                            AMA 1294, Scientific Leader
                                            Member<br>
                                            SPA L-18, Board Member<br>
                                            (865) 435-1476v  (865)
                                            604-0541c</span><br>
                                        </strong></em></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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                </span></span><span></span><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
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              font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family:
              Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Ed
              Alt via NSRCA-discussion"
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
              <b>To: </b>"NSRCA List"
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
              <b>Sent: </b>Sunday, August 23, 2015 8:35:05 AM<br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>
              <div><br>
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                <div><span style="font-size:12pt;"
                    data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;">I'm not sure</span><span
                    style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
                    12pt;"> , but a</span><span style="font-size:12pt;"
                    data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;">fter 100 years or
                    so, it seems that the barrel roll may have a new
                    definition.  This appears to require that the model
                    skid around the entire rotation, which is not really
                    how a barrel roll is typically done as far as I
                    know.  I believe that you would normally do one
                    mainly with simultaneous pitch and roll inputs, and
                    maybe touches of rudder to keep that coordinated, in
                    much the same  way as  a coordinated turn would be
                    done in a full scale aircraft to keep the turn &
                    bank indicator's ball centered. As a result, it
                    would present itself as if the aircraft were
                    traveling along the inside of a cylinder with both
                    of it's main gear wheels always in contact with its
                    inner surface, hence the name barrel roll.  Executed
                    this way, you could do that Bob Hoover demonstration
                    of keeping a glass of some liquid perfectly still,
                    resting on top of the instrument panel.</span></div>
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>This definition seems to be more of a variation
                    on an integrated roll, and as a result you would
                    expect to see the tail pointed <span
                      style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
                      12pt;">at perhaps</span><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
                      12pt;"> a 45 deg yaw angle at one point (when roll
                      angle = 90 deg), and the nose yawed at you 45 deg
                      at another (when roll angle = 180 deg).  And I
                      think that as a result it would also mean that the
                      wing tip in the direction of the roll would always
                      be in contact with the inner surface of the
                      imaginary cylinder, instead of </span><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
                      12pt;">both wheels.</span><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size:
                      12pt;">  Am I visualizing that correctly?  It
                      seems like it would be tricky to judge accurately.</span></div>
                  <div><span style="font-size:12pt;"
                      data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
                    </span></div>
                  <div><span style="font-size:12pt;"
                      data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;">Ed</span></div>
                </div>
                <br>
                <div>
                  <hr id="ecxstopSpelling">Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015
                  23:10:49 -0700<br>
                  To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:underdw@gmail.com">underdw@gmail.com</a>;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
                  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>
                  From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div>Hopefully this helps…</div>
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                      style="font-weight:bold;"
                      data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">From: </span>
                    NSRCA-discussion on behalf of NSRCA List<br>
                    <span style="font-weight:bold;"
                      data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">Reply-To: </span>
                    Daniel Underkofler, NSRCA List<br>
                    <span style="font-weight:bold;"
                      data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">Date: </span>
                    Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 6:21 PM<br>
                    <span style="font-weight:bold;"
                      data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">To: </span>
                    NSRCA List<br>
                    <span style="font-weight:bold;"
                      data-mce-style="font-weight: bold;">Subject: </span>
                    [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll<br>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div dir="ltr">In F17 there is a cryptic aresti symbol
                    that is described in the figure description as a
                    barrel roll.  Will somebody please describe this in
                    more detail and what control inputs will obtain the
                    required result?
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Thanks, Dan</div>
                  </div>
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