<div dir="ltr">I am sure that there is more than one expert in the electrical code in this group. Their suggestions are welcome. I am almost 100% sure that the code requires a means to to physically disconect any type of power system in order to meet code. Thererore, if we agree that we need to meet the electrical code the disarming plug should be part of the system. Just that simple.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature">Vicente "Vince" Bortone</div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Chris via NSRCA-discussion <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I have personally tested 2 ESCs for 10S (budget brands) that flew
just fine but would start up on their own if you turned the receiver
off without unplugging the flight battery. In both cases, I
notified the manufacturer and one never replied and the other said
their ESC "worked as intended" so be very careful expecting the
electronics to always work as you think they should. <br>
<br>
I agree that high end equipment and flawless installation and usage
is a safe way to go but way too many of the planes I have seen have
neither of these qualities and a mechanical break in the power lead
is 100% effective.<br>
<br>
Nobody yet has mentioned probably the most important issue and that
is I don't want someone else responsible for removing my canopy and
plugging /unplugging the battery and in the case of preflight,
making sure the canopy is reinstalled securely prior to flight or
removing it on the runway only to have it blow across the concrete
while trying to unplug the flight battery after flight.<br>
<br>
Chris<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 2/23/2015 1:30 PM, Ron Hansen via
NSRCA-discussion wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>How many have witnessed one or more of the following events:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Taken off without properly charged receiver, transmitter or
primary batteries</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Forgot to plug in ailerons </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Forgot to insert wing bolts</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Forgot to turn off transmitter or receiver at the end of
flight </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Forgot to disarm batteries at the end of flight</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Seems to me far too many responding to this thread suggest
these things have never happen. Those folks are not being
honest. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Argue the merits of why an external visual indicator should
not be in our AMA rules. Saying it isn't foolproof or adds
weight or cost too much or it never happens in your experience
doesn't carry weight with me. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These things happen far more often than we care to admit. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Feb 23, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Derek Koopowitz via
NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">I think the failsafe demonstration should occur
when the airplanes are processed - weighed and measured?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:38 AM,
Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div style>I use an arming system
on my competition airplanes. That doesn’t make my
system foolproof, but I fail to see that it introduces
safety issues. Maybe the wiring could fail and the
motor not start when commanded, but any reasonable
wiring failure I can think of would not result in the
motor running.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Of greater concern to me is that many pilots
either have not or have improperly set up the
failsafe for when the transmitter is turned off. I
witnessed an accident that resulted in the
destruction of one airplane and severe damage of
another when the pilot turned off his transmitter.
Fortunately, nobody was hurt.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am tempted to ask the Nats event director (Bob
Kane) to have the line chiefs request that pilots
demonstrate their airplane’s failsafe operation
prior to their first official flight at the Nats.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron Van Putte</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Feb 23, 2015, at 11:05 AM, DaveL322 via
NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">How
many runaways have happened with electrics
at pattern contests? Since maybe 2008 when
substantial numbers of electrics were being
used? Personally, I have never seen one.</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">How
many IC engines have I seen inadvertently
started at half or full throttle since
2008? I have personally seen several.</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">Have
there been instances of of arming plugs and
wiring fail? Yes.</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">A
lot of things could go wrong resulting in a
potential safety hazard with IC or electric
patterns planes. Having a safe procedure
and sticking to it 100% is the
issue.....accidents happens when procedures
are not followed. Arming plugs themselves
do not make electrics safe....they do
introduce another failure point.</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
</div>
<span style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important;white-space:normal">Regards,</span>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">Dave</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">Sent
on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note® 3</div>
<br style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">
<br style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">--------
Original message --------</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">From:
Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><span> </span></div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">Date:02/23/2015
11:50 AM (GMT-05:00)<span> </span></div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">To:
Matthew Finley <<a href="mailto:rcfin02@msn.com" target="_blank">rcfin02@msn.com</a>>,
General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><span> </span></div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">Cc:<span> </span></div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming
Plug )<span> </span></div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">At
nearly every contest I've attended since I
started flying electric in pattern (the 2004
Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one
occurrence where someone retrieved a plane
without removing an arming plug first.
Usually the pilot reminds the person to do
it while they're carrying the plane back or
as they're setting it down somewhere. It
happens with my planes too and I make sure
they switch the receiver off and then I
remove my canopy and disconnect the battery
directly. But before they even get that far
I've taken the other steps to make sure
there's virtually no chance the motor is
going to run.</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">My
point is this. A layered approach is the
only way I've found to effectively mitigate
this particular risk to the levels of safety
that you claim. Relying on someone to
remove an arming plug is not a complete
panacea and may lend a false sense of
security that the motor system has been
de-energized, when in fact it may not have
been. There's many ways to manage the risk
to the desired level, the use of an arming
plug is one, and may not necessarily be the
best.</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal">Jerry<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"><br>
On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley
via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal" type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><b>I use the Ultra Deans
stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited,
and It works very well. I would
gather it provides you with a 99 %
dagree of confidence that your
caller , plane carrier , yourself, or
anyone else will not be harmed. Yes...
I do agree that there is a miniscuel
chance that a pilot / caller could
forget to unplug the safety, however I
feel most pilots that have been doing
it a while is like tying your shoes,
or etc.... On all of my electrics
except for indoor ships, I have some
sort of disconnect. I for one would
like to see it an inforced rule at all
sanctioned meets not just pattern
meets, that any plane over a certain
size or weight must have one in order
to fly. Just my three pennies<span> </span><br>
</b><br>
<br>
<i><b>Matthew E. Finley</b></i><br>
QCI - Technology Assistant<br>
<a href="tel:614-557-3846" target="_blank" value="+16145573846">614-557-3846</a>
Mobile<br>
<a href="mailto:mfinley@quadcityinnovations.com" target="_blank">mfinley@quadcityinnovations.com</a><span> </span><br>
<br>
<span> </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="font:14px/normal ArialMS;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal" type="cite">
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