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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV><FONT size=4>Lots of good comments (and a few emotional). I’m sure everyone
agrees that an accidental power up is dangerous and several layers of prevention
is a good thing. Whether the batteries are disconnected from the propulsion
system internally or externally gets the job done. I’ve been a bit amazed by the
folks I’ve observed making an internal connection while reaching through the
prop arc, thereby putting their body parts at risk. Some while squatting in
front of the airplane – that could change family planning! Probably more
opportunity to avoid this with an external connection, especially on bipes.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Generally at contests there’s skilled help available to secure
the airplane, hold the canopy, remove an arming key, etc. The majority of our
flying is done with much less help (none?) when practicing. I find it convenient
to connect the pack internally and affix the canopy before moving onto the
runway, where the arming key is then inserted pre-flight and removed post
flight. A well designed connection is very reliable (that’ll jinx me). Trying to
manage an airplane, canopy, and TX while connecting the batteries on a windy day
is more than I want to risk. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I’ve no problem doing an internal connect – say at the Nats –
but nothing precludes using the arming key also. OTOH, if there were an external
connect rule it really doesn’t make sense to bypass it which would probably
grounds for disqualification. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Be careful.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">Dave Burton via
NSRCA-discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 23, 2015 4:12 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug
)</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>All
systems I've seen meet that code test. Use of some type of battery connector so
you can remove and change batteries seems to meet that
test.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Otherwise
we would be soldering our batteries, ESC, and motors into one
unit.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'>Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"'> NSRCA-discussion
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Vicente
Bortone via NSRCA-discussion<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 23, 2015 2:57
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Chris; General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I am sure that there is more than one expert in the
electrical code in this group. Their suggestions are welcome. I am
almost 100% sure that the code requires a means to to physically disconect any
type of power system in order to meet code. Thererore, if we agree that we
need to meet the electrical code the disarming plug should be part of the
system. Just that simple.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR clear=all><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Chris via NSRCA-discussion
<<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I have personally tested 2 ESCs for 10S (budget brands)
that flew just fine but would start up on their own if you turned the receiver
off without unplugging the flight battery. In both cases, I notified the
manufacturer and one never replied and the other said their ESC "worked as
intended" so be very careful expecting the electronics to always work as you
think they should. <BR><BR>I agree that high end equipment and flawless
installation and usage is a safe way to go but way too many of the planes I have
seen have neither of these qualities and a mechanical break in the power lead is
100% effective.<BR><BR>Nobody yet has mentioned probably the most important
issue and that is I don't want someone else responsible for removing my canopy
and plugging /unplugging the battery and in the case of preflight, making sure
the canopy is reinstalled securely prior to flight or removing it on the runway
only to have it blow across the concrete while trying to unplug the flight
battery after flight.<BR><BR>Chris<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><BR><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On 2/23/2015 1:30 PM, Ron Hansen via NSRCA-discussion
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>How many have witnessed one or more of the following
events:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Taken off without properly charged receiver, transmitter or
primary batteries<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Forgot to plug in ailerons <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Forgot to insert wing bolts<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Forgot to turn off transmitter or receiver at the end of
flight <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Forgot to disarm batteries at the end of
flight<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Seems to me far too many responding to this thread suggest
these things have never happen. Those folks are not being honest.
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Argue the merits of why an external visual indicator should
not be in our AMA rules. Saying it isn't foolproof or adds weight or cost too
much or it never happens in your experience doesn't carry weight with me.
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>These things happen far more often than we care to admit.
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><BR>On Feb 23, 2015, at 12:42
PM, Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I think the failsafe demonstration should occur when the
airplanes are processed - weighed and measured?<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Ronald Van Putte via
NSRCA-discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I use an arming system on my competition airplanes.
That doesn’t make my system foolproof, but I fail to see that it introduces
safety issues. Maybe the wiring could fail and the motor not
start when commanded, but any reasonable wiring failure I can think of would
not result in the motor running. <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Of greater concern to me is that many pilots either have
not or have improperly set up the failsafe for when the transmitter is
turned off. I witnessed an accident that resulted in the
destruction of one airplane and severe damage of another when the pilot
turned off his transmitter. Fortunately, nobody was
hurt.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I am tempted to ask the Nats event director (Bob Kane) to
have the line chiefs request that pilots demonstrate their airplane’s
failsafe operation prior to their first official flight at the
Nats.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Feb 23, 2015, at 11:05 AM, DaveL322 via
NSRCA-discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>How many
runaways have happened with electrics at pattern contests? Since
maybe 2008 when substantial numbers of electrics were being used?
Personally, I have never seen one.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>How many IC
engines have I seen inadvertently started at half or full throttle since
2008? I have personally seen several.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>Have there been
instances of of arming plugs and wiring fail?
Yes.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>A lot of things
could go wrong resulting in a potential safety hazard with IC or electric
patterns planes. Having a safe procedure and sticking to it 100% is
the issue.....accidents happens when procedures are not followed.
Arming plugs themselves do not make electrics safe....they do introduce
another failure point.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>Regards,</SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>Sent on a Sprint
Samsung Galaxy Note® 3<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><BR
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px"><BR></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>--------
Original message --------<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>From: Budd
Engineering via NSRCA-discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>Date:02/23/2015
11:50 AM (GMT-05:00) <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>To: Matthew
Finley <<A href="mailto:rcfin02@msn.com"
target=_blank>rcfin02@msn.com</A>>, General pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>Cc:
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>At nearly every
contest I've attended since I started flying electric in pattern (the 2004
Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one occurrence where someone retrieved
a plane without removing an arming plug first. Usually the pilot
reminds the person to do it while they're carrying the plane back or as
they're setting it down somewhere. It happens with my planes too and
I make sure they switch the receiver off and then I remove my canopy and
disconnect the battery directly. But before they even get that far
I've taken the other steps to make sure there's virtually no chance the
motor is going to run.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>My point is
this. A layered approach is the only way I've found to effectively
mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety that you
claim. Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a complete
panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor system has
been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. There's many
ways to manage the risk to the desired level, the use of an arming plug is
one, and may not necessarily be the best.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>Jerry<BR><BR>Sent
from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><BR>On Feb 23,
2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; WORD-SPACING: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>I use the
Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and It works very
well. I would gather it provides you with a 99 % dagree of confidence
that your caller , plane carrier , yourself, or anyone else will not be
harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel chance that a pilot
/ caller could forget to unplug the safety, however I feel most pilots
that have been doing it a while is like tying your shoes, or etc.... On
all of my electrics except for indoor ships, I have some sort of
disconnect. I for one would like to see it an inforced rule at all
sanctioned meets not just pattern meets, that any plane over a certain
size or weight must have one in order to fly. Just my three pennies
<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'><BR><BR><B><I>Matthew
E. Finley</I></B><BR>QCI - Technology Assistant<BR><A
href="tel:614-557-3846" target=_blank>614-557-3846</A> Mobile<BR><A
href="mailto:mfinley@quadcityinnovations.com"
target=_blank>mfinley@quadcityinnovations.com</A> <BR><BR>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; WORD-SPACING: 0px; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "ArialMS","serif"'>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV></DIV>
<P
class=MsoNormal><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
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<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto">No virus found in
this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2015.0.5736 / Virus
Database: 4293/9161 - Release Date: 02/22/15<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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