<div dir="ltr">Not asking you to (means I'll get my Model X sooner :-). Just pointing out that the concerns about LiPo in electric cars are WAY overblown. <div><br></div><div>As usual with human beings, we perceive the novel, but spectacular risk as a greater risk than the much more common risks we live with every day, even though those are statistically much more likely to kill you.</div><div><br></div><div>We're afraid to fly when we're much more likely to be killed in a car accident or just walking down the street.</div><div><br></div><div>We're afraid of electric cars when we're much more likely to be killed driving a gasoline car.</div><div><br></div><div>We're afraid of the possibility of an arming plug falling out or decreasing power to our motors due to increased resistance when the risk of hurting ourselves or others after a flight due to forgetting to disarm the plane is much greater :-)</div><div><br></div><div>Peter+</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:10 PM, John Pavlick <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jpavlick26@att.net" target="_blank">jpavlick26@att.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">That’s nice but I still can’t convince myself to trade in my Mercedes
and get a Tesla because it’s “safer”. </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1f497d">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p><span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">John Pavlick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Cell: <a href="tel:203-417-4971" value="+12034174971" target="_blank">203-417-4971</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><img width="90" height="39" src="cid:image001.png@01D00F3B.B1FC3F50" alt="idslogo2"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Impact","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Integrated Development Services</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</span><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Peter Vogel
[mailto:<a href="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com" target="_blank">vogel.peter@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 03, 2014 8:52 PM</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" target="_blank">jpavlick@idseng.com</a>; John Pavlick; General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] LIPOs on board?<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There have been SIX reported electric car fires in the past
several years (none of which involved injury to any people in the car) with
over 100,000 electric cars on the road and over 1 billion electric miles
driven. In 2012 alone there were over 175,000 gasoline car fires, 300
deaths and 800 injuries in those fires. You are statistically MUCH more
likely to experience a fire in a gasoline car than in an electric car
(regardless of whether you divide by the # of electric cars or # of electric
miles vs. the # of gasoline cars or # of gasoline miles driven). <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Of the 5 Tesla fires, all were due to road debris
penetrating the bottom of the chassis at highway speeds and tesla fixed that 2
ways: extra titanium armor on the bottom and a tweak to the software to not
lower the car quite as much (to reduce drag) at highway speeds.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Peter+<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 5:28 PM, John Pavlick via
NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Yes
but gasoline power systems don’t short out. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">John
Pavlick</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Cell:
<a href="tel:203-417-4971" target="_blank">203-417-4971</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><img border="0" width="90" height="39" src="cid:image001.png@01D00F3B.B1FC3F50" alt="idslogo2"></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Impact","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Integrated
Development Services</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> NSRCA-discussion
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jay
Marshall via NSRCA-discussion<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 03, 2014 8:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'John Gayer'; 'General pattern discussion'</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] LIPOs on board?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Autos
will have no impact; they have been driving around, and crashing, with 15 gal
of highly flammable fuel for quite some time. I can remember also, when dealing
with LISO2 batteries that there were severe restrictions on their weight. It
was most embarrassing when we convinced a new customer how great and safe they
were and where they arrived they were marked “</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:red">HAZZARDOUS MATREIAL</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">”! </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Bradley Hand ITC";color:#1f497d">Jay
Marshall</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> NSRCA-discussion
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Gayer via NSRCA-discussion<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 03, 2014 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" target="_blank">jpavlick@idseng.com</a>;
John Pavlick; General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] LIPOs on board?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If
either happens there will be a s***storm over who is to blame while ignoring
what should be done to prevent a re-occurrence. Or better yet put in
place some reasonable laws to make an occurrence less likely, keeping in mind
the old story about the safest airplane.<br>
John<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
12/3/2014 2:45 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">And I
wonder what will happen when there’s a major accident involving an electric car
on a highway somewhere…</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">John
Pavlick</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Cell:
<a href="tel:203-417-4971" target="_blank">203-417-4971</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><img border="0" width="90" height="39" src="cid:image001.png@01D00F3B.B1FC3F50" alt="idslogo2"></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Impact","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Integrated
Development Services</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> NSRCA-discussion [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 03, 2014 4:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] LIPOs on board?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">This
article appeared in the Albuquerque Journal this morning. I was not aware that
large shipments of lithium batteries could still be just under my seat on my
next flight. We all know what havoc a single 10S pack can do if it catches
fire. I find it hard to believe that an airliner could survive a palletfull
going up. It's no surprise that the fire suppressant they used had no effect.<br>
There is a proposed rule going into effect the first of the year that is
supposed to eliminate commercial shipments from passenger airliners- if it
isn't blocked or postponed. I wonder what the checkin counter response would be
to a question of whether there is a shipment of lipos on board? Think they
could even find out that information?<br>
<br>
John Gayer<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<h2 style="margin-bottom:12.8pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333;font-weight:normal">Shipments of
lithium-ion units raise concerns over fires, blasts</span><u></u><u></u></h2>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:.3in;line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">WASHINGTON — Dramatic U.S. government test results raise new
concern that bulk shipments of rechargeable lithium batteries carried as cargo
on passenger planes are susceptible to fires or explosions that could destroy
the airliners.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333"><img border="0" width="595" height="336" src="cid:image002.jpg@01D00F3B.B1FC3F50"></span><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#bbbbbb">This
video frame grab shows a test of a cargo container packed with 5,000
lithium-ion batteries and a cartrid</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">This video frame grab shows a
test of a cargo container packed with 5,000 lithium-ion batteries and a
cartridge heater that resulted in a fire and explosion.</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:.3in;line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">Yet U.S. and international officials have been slow to adopt
safety restrictions that might affect the powerful industries that depend on
the batteries and the airlines that profit from shipping them. The batteries
are used in products ranging from cellphones and laptops to hybrid cars.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:.3in;line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">Shipments of rechargeable batteries on passenger planes are
supposed to be limited to no more than a handful in a single box, under safety
standards set by the U.N.’s International Civil Aviation Organization and
adopted by the U.S. and other nations. But a loophole permits shippers to pack
many small boxes into one shipment and get around the rules. Tens of thousands
of the batteries may be packed into pallets or containers and loaded into the
cargo holds of wide-body passenger planes.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:.3in;line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">In an April test by the Federal Aviation Administration, a cargo
container was packed with 5,000 lithium-ion batteries and a cartridge heater
added to simulate a single battery experiencing uncontrolled overheating. The
heat from the cartridge triggered escalating overheating in nearby batteries,
which spread in a chain reaction. Temperatures reached about 1,100 degrees.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:.3in;line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">Once about 300 batteries had become involved, a fierce explosion
blew open the container door and sent boxes flying, catching FAA and industry
observers by surprise. Within seconds, the cargo container was in flames. The
explosion came from a buildup of flammable gases. A second test in September
produced similar results, despite the addition of a fire suppression agent.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:.3in;line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333">The U.N.’s civil aviation agency is considering a series of
proposals to strengthen packaging, labeling and handling standards for
lithium-ion battery shipments, and airline pilot unions are pushing for limits
on the number of batteries that can be transported.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre><pre><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics
District X<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="200" height="154" src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6513778381_5569cc985d_m.jpg"><img border="0" width="200" height="136" src="https://googledrive.com/host/0B4LOPeyGAgOJUVJmU1dJMVl6WWc/AcademyModelAeronauticsLogo.png"><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training</div><div>Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark</div><div>Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X</div><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6513778381_5569cc985d_m.jpg" width="200" height="154"><img src="https://googledrive.com/host/0B4LOPeyGAgOJUVJmU1dJMVl6WWc/AcademyModelAeronauticsLogo.png" width="200" height="136"><br></div></div>
</div>