<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">+1.<div><br></div><div>However, now I'm worried that I agreed with Mark Atwood twice in the same week.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br><div><div>On Apr 11, 2014, at 12:38 PM, Atwood, Mark wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Only my opinion, but I think we need to judge “as intended” simply because anything else will be far too difficult to execute consistently. As you mentioned, maneuvers like a cuban eight, 4-point, figure M, etc, all have well defined INTENDED centers which make judging center fairly easy, leaving more mental horsepower to evaluate the rest of the maneuver. If we have to start waiting until the completion of the presented maneuver to try (and Try is a key word since truly evaluating center on a long, large, poorly performed maneuver is subjective at best) then I think we’ll be significantly lowering our quality of judging.<div><br></div><div>My $0.02</div><div><br></div><div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: rgb(89, 89, 89); ">Mark Atwood </span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: rgb(89, 89, 89); "> </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">|</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> President </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; 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font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(19, 81, 243); "> </span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" style="color: purple; "><span style="color: windowtext; ">www.paragon-inc.com</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style="color: rgb(49, 132, 155); "><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><span><span><image001.png></span></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; "> </span>
</span></div>
</div></div></span></div></span></div><br><div><div>On Apr 11, 2014, at 12:08 PM, J N Hiller <<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
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<div class="Section1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial">Since this was attached to my earlier post I’ll respond.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial">The question I’m left with is:<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial">Is center based on correct geometry or geometry that is - or - can be
flown incorrectly, such as a non vertical extending the side of the maneuver
beyond the finish of the ¼ R – or – a ¾ loop that has the correct R from a
starting point offset towards center forcing the center of the ¾ loop off
center – or – a ¾ loop with a larger radius also off center relative to the
start of the ¼ R.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial">Are we judging “As Presented or Intended”?<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial">If “As Intended”; apply the same concept to other maneuvers such as a Cuban
eight. If the crossover is on center, is the maneuver centered even thought it
may have un-equal ¾ loops elongating one side?<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial">Again are we judging “As Presented or Intended”?<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial">Jim <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="EmailStyle53"><font size="2" color="#993366" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span style="font-weight:
bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Don Ramsey<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, April 11, 2014 4:40
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
>From the Judges Chair</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">I
don’t understand what the problem is with this maneuver. The Powerpoint
for F-15 is incorrect on the NSRCA site. Peter Uhlig did the original and
this is what he originally drew. I contacted Michael Ramel about this and
Peter updated the presentation. It is really simple. The entry loop
starts at center, the upline is then displaced from center, the upper loop is
centered and the integrated roll is centered on the pole. That means the
model comes through center level upright. Entry and exit lines have no
bearing on the centering of the loop, the main criteria is the entry radius
defines the size of the loop on top. Peter’s latest Powerpoint shows this
clearly and has been confirmed by the F3A chairman.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Don<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;border:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:
bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>J N Hiller<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 08, 2014 7:25
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
>From the Judges Chair</span></font><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:6.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
6.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span class="EmailStyle50"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">I’m one of the folks
that sit in the chair and judge this stuff.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:6.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
6.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span class="EmailStyle50"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Referencing - 2014
FAI Sporting Code - F3 Aerobatics.pdf - under lines 5B.8.3, entry and
exit lines need to be horizontal and of recognizable length. I understand this
to mean, not equal in length and no specific length. Both lines could be within
the boundary of the geometry.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:6.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
6.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span class="EmailStyle50"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Perfect geometry
with equal radiuses wound center on the start of the ¼ R, but cannot be
confirmed until the ¾ loop radius is judged to be equal. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:6.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
6.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span class="EmailStyle50"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">A maneuver having
un-equal radiuses would center the maneuver to no predefined point which will
be somewhere within the 3/4 loop.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:6.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
6.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span class="EmailStyle50"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">A larger radius ¾
loop would offset the center towards the entrance side where a smaller radius ¾
loop would offset the center towards the exit side neither of which will be
directly above the start of the ¼ loop. Understanding this, there can be no
pre-stated center reference.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:6.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
6.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span class="EmailStyle50"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:6.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
6.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span class="EmailStyle50"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Spokane<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span class="EmailStyle50"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Jas S<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:54
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
>From the Judges Chair</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">If there was
a roll on the exit, then I think we would be in the 'somewhere' center right? <br>
<br>
Time for dinner, need to replenish... </span></font><font><o:p></o:p></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Tue, Apr
8, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Jas S <<a href="mailto:justanotherflyr@gmail.com" target="_blank">justanotherflyr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.8pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><a href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-pattern-flying-101/11596737-f-15-figure-9-centerline-question.html" target="_blank">http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-pattern-flying-101/11596737-f-15-figure-9-centerline-question.html</a></span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:76.8pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Post #8</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.8pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:76.8pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Tue, Apr
8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Jas S <<a href="mailto:justanotherflyr@gmail.com" target="_blank">justanotherflyr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 81.6pt;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
</span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">Oh yea, forgot about those lol. Being
in a straight line, the 'line' (whole maneuver) is centered with those.</font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:81.6pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Someone
posted a drawing of the 9 on RCU, and while the center is the whole maneuver
works, isn't it going to be the center of the loops/roll when done correctly?</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:81.6pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:81.6pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Tue, Apr
8, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Derek Koopowitz <<a href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D">So in
years past we’ve had a 1 ½ snap roll followed by a 2 ½ rolls in the opposite
direction. Where is the center on that maneuver? The center is the
mid-point between the start and finish of the maneuver (including straight line
in and straight line out). There is no definitive middle to these types
of maneuvers and so a statement that it is “somewhere in between the 2 ½ rolls”
would be accurate as well – it depends on how fast/slow those rolls were done.</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.2in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.2in"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">
</span></font></b></p><div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><b><font size="2" face="Arial">From:</font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>John Gayer<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:03
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.2in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
>From the Judges Chair</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><div style="margin-left: 1.2in;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
</span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.2in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Derek,<br>
"Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable.
I could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.<br>
The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the entry
and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March K-Factor. I
don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single loop
with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the last three
quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That places the
center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop just as it
would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be on the
centerline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.<br>
As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see
that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line
begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a vertical
line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.<br>
It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is certainly
true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should be using a
better word than "somewhere".<br>
John</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.2in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz
wrote:</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><div style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1.7in;"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D">
</span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial">Anthony,</font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D">This shouldn’t be
confusing at all… the center of the maneuver is the middle point between the
start and end of the maneuver. How much more simple can it get?
The statement that the “middle should be somewhere in the ¾ loop portion”
is correct – depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match the radius of
the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuver starts. That
center portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will fly it
differently.</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D">Your comment about
“many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it differently then they are
incorrect. The clarification I got is straight from the F3 sub-committee
chair…</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D">-Derek</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">
</span></font></b></p><div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><b><font size="2" face="Arial">From:</font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Romano<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 08, 2014
11:27 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
>From the Judges Chair</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div><div style="margin-right: 0.5in; margin-left: 1.7in;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
</span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">Would love to see a
review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the March Kfactor the center
was described as "should be the middle of the maneuver somewhere
in the ¾ loop portion." While the many outside the US see it that the
loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code show the upline
being centered.</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">A bit confusing,</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">Anthony</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt">
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:
.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.7in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center;
border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div>
</div>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014
09:28:00 -0700<br>
From: <a href="mailto:joncarter60@comcast.net" target="_blank">joncarter60@comcast.net</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">Hey guys - we got an
excellent suggestion from the group for last month's article so I thought I
would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or judging question? Just let
me know.</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">Thanks,</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">Jon Carter</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;">Judging Committee
Chairman</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="1" color="#575757" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#575757">Sent via the Samsung
GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.7in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:1.7in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
1.7in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
1.7in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
1.7in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div><div style="margin-left: 1.2in;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
</span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.2in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:81.6pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
</span></font></p><div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character:
line-break">
</font><font><o:p></o:p></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:81.6pt"><font size="3" color="#888888" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#888888">-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:81.6pt"><font size="3" color="#888888" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#888888">Jason<br>
<a href="http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/" target="_blank">http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:76.8pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
</span></font></p><div style="mso-element:para-border-div"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br clear="all" style="mso-special-character:
line-break">
</font><font><o:p></o:p></font><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:76.8pt"><span class="hoenzb"><font size="3" color="#888888" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:#888888">-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:76.8pt"><font size="3" color="#888888" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#888888">Jason<br>
<a href="http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/" target="_blank">http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/</a></span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- </span></font><font><o:p></o:p></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Jason<br>
<a href="http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/" target="_blank">http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/</a></span></font><font><span style=""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
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