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<div><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Entry and exit lines should be clearly discernable but the length is not a judging criterion. I think there was time when a length number was thrown into the mix (50 feet) but don't remember if that ever became a rule or not. If we had 50 feet min as an exit length and a second 50 feet min as an entry length, I think things would get a bit wide quickly</FONT></div>
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<div>I look for the SNL, upright or inverted, before and after. If it exists clearly, I don't take a deduction. Neither for the previous nor for the current. To me, it's the same continuous line which is part of the smoothness and grace of pattern. </div>
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<div>The downgrades for the SNL line are pretty straight forward...climb/dive, wings not level, and path not parallel (or perpendicular, if we ever get there) to the flight line.</div>
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<div>MattK</div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><br>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 11:18 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair<br>
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<div dir=ltr>The competitor has to demonstrate that an exit line and entry line exists between two maneuvers. If the judge has to think about whether the line was an exit line or an entry line then a deduction should be made. All the rule book states is that a line must exist - yes, we know there is no defined length to that line - so if a judge has to think about it then it should be a deduction.
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<div>To me it's just like point rolls... if the judge thinks that there wasn't a point then the competitor did not clearly demonstrate the point and a deduction should be made. Remember, it is up to the competitor to clearly demonstrate all elements of the maneuver so that there should be no ambiguity.</div>
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<div class=gmail_extra><br>
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<div class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 3:16 AM, Del R <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">drykert2@rochester.rr.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<br>
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<div><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Playing devils advocate here but how is a judge supposed to know if you argue one uses the straight line drawn where in the straight line do you start to judge the next maneuver? Is the judge take all straight lines and split them down the middle and give 1/2 to the preceding maneuver? That also is never clearly addressed! Thus judges for years have been forced to make assumptions of where maneuvers truly start. Thus many looked for the first push or pull and as long as it was preceded by a straight line all were happy. (Judge and contestant) Creating maneuvers that create judging headaches don't help. Clearly defined leads to well presented. Some maneuvers have longer straight lines than others. When you barely have a straight line presented at all doesn't that create grounds for downgrade? It is not specifically mentioned. </FONT></div>
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A title=geobet4evr@gmail.com href="mailto:geobet4evr@gmail.com">George Kennie</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:04 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >>From the Judges Chair</div>
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<div>Boy, you guys got me wondering what all the hub-bub was all about so I had to go and take a look and I think that I'm probably in partial agreement with John. As I see it,It's simple geometry. After the turnaround it has to be classified as a "center maneuver" and center maneuvers should be centered ! The total width of the maneuver is equal to the diameter of the loop, therefore the loop must be presented in a way that displays one half of it's area, irrespective of it's size, on either side of the center line which would require that the vertical upline be offset past center on entry a distance equal to the radius of the loop. The loop is the key element for the centering of this maneuver and the Aresti is incorrectly drawn IMHO. Sorry if I muddied the waters here guys, but the forum appeared to be open.</div>
<div>Georgie</div>
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<div class=gmail_extra><br>
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<div class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:02 PM, John Gayer <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">jgghome@comcast.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<br>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Derek,<br>
"Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.<br>
The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.<br>
As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.<br>
It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should be using a better word than "somewhere".<br>
John<br>
<div>On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:<br>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Anthony,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">This shouldn’t be confusing at all… the center of the maneuver is the middle point between the start and end of the maneuver. How much more simple can it get? The statement that the “middle should be somewhere in the ¾ loop portion” is correct – depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuver starts. That center portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will fly it differently.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Your comment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it differently then they are incorrect. The clarification I got is straight from the F3 sub-committee chair…<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">-Derek<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<br>
<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM<br>
<B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many outside the US see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code show the upline being centered.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">A bit confusing,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Anthony<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700<br>
From: <A href="mailto:joncarter60@comcast.net">joncarter60@comcast.net</A><br>
To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or judging question? Just let me know.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thanks,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Jon Carter<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Judging Committee Chairman<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(87,87,87); FONT-SIZE: 7pt">Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone<U></U><U></U></SPAN></div>
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