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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I suspect the main reason for this discussion is to allow our aging pilots to move down.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>How many CD’s out there and/or competitors would object to a masters pilot as an example moving down to advanced because he can’t see well enough to continue flying masters.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I for one would not. I would rather they continue to compete rather than hang it up.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Perhaps those pilots that move down could disqualify themselves from District championship contention and/or trophy consideration for local contest (i.e., they would be flying for fun).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>ronlock@comcast.net<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013 9:51 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bob Kane; General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I suspect that may have been the case. I think the rule is support for the peer pressure that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>generally works well. I hope the new wording of "should move" doesn't erode the system. If the class<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>system goes away....do we then call it a pattern fly in? <VBG><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Ron Lockhart<o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>"Bob Kane" <<a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a>><br><b>To: </b>"General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, August 20, 2013 9:44:05 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>This rule has been in place longer than I have been flying pattern. There must have been some compelling reason to implement it as the only thing that never changes is resistance to change. There must have been some glaring examples of sandbagging going on. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Bob Kane<br><a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Dave Burton <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>><br><b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion' <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:08 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yiv3061879425><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>AMA has never kept up with points/classes, etc. at least in the 40+ years I’ve been flying pattern. And today’s AMA has almost no interest in any competition other than for whatever dollars may be involved in the Muncie flying sites (if any). Unfortunately most of the membership feels the same way I guess.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dave</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Gayer<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:42 PM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'>You will note that there is no specific consideration in the rule for the competitor that says " I made a mistake moving up, I was not ready although I thought I was and I would like to move back a class". The examples given would lead one to believe that this "various reason" would not be accepted. And this example is the key missing element that loses us competitors.<br>You will also note that "various reasons" could mean anything. I thought the AMA tried to stay away from ambiguous rules like this. <br>Quite frankly the AMA has abrogated their responsibility to maintain the class distinctions under their rules. If they want to keep lists of competitors and their classes, advancement points and disqualify results for being in a lower class without waiver, that would be fine. Right now the AMA maintain no lists of competitor classes, points towards advancement or participation levels and should have rules that reflect that lack of interest, leaving the SIG to self-police. <br>John<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>On 8/20/2013 12:43 PM, John Fuqua wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Here is the rule:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>8.1.2: Exception: </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Consideration will be given to requests for reclassification to a lower class for various reasons, such as disability or breaks from participation of several years. For a contestant to be reclassified to a lower class, the contestant must petition via email (or letter if email is not available) to the contestant's AMA District Contest Board (CB) representative explaining the reasons for the reclassification. The CB representative will forward a recommendation for approval/disapproval to the AMA District Vice President (DVP). The AMA DVP will concur/non-concur and forward the decision to the petitioner and AMA District CB representative with an info copy to the AMA Technical Director.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Note that the petitioner goes to his CB rep who actually makes the recommendation. My DVP has always agreed with my recommendation and I see no reason why other DVPs would act differently. All this is done via email so it should not take more than a week or two at most. I always info the AMA Tech Director as well just to keep him in the loop. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>JohnF</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Gayer<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:01 PM<br><b>To:</b> mike mueller; General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Mike,<br>Thanks again for the loan of a very nice airplane for the Fat Lake Pattern Meet. Glad Russ was able to buy it, it will be a very good airplane for him. <br>The contest was very well run by Bob Wilson and John Hoelscher and other members of the Peoria R/C Modelers. I had a great time flying, meeting new folks and hanging out at the field in Russell Shavitz' new RV parked in the middle of all that corn.<br><br>As Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread and we discussed during the contest, the rule change we proposed last year addressed the problem of being able to move down a class at the end of the year. Others have pointed out that there is a mechanism for doing this now. It involves petitioning the AMA for a change in class. There are two problems with this system. One is that there are some who quit rather than go through the process. Those flyers are lost to us for long periods of time and may never return. I know about that, I was one of them for a decade.<br>The second issue is that the AMA VPs seldom(ever?) reject these petitions. They do not know the flyer and his abilities, may(or may not) do a bit of research, and then approve the petition. If they are always approved, what is the function of this process? Why should we waste the time of the DVP? Leave it up to the competitor to recognize that a move back one class would be good for him. Peer pressure will take care of abusers - as it does now, not the AMA.<br>John<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>On 8/19/2013 12:16 PM, mike mueller wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer from New Mexico attend and fly with us.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into the sport.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> What would it take to get such a program instituted? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we have now?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Mike Mueller<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Customer Services <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>F3aunlimited<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8709 (20130820) __________<br><br>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.<br><br><a href="http://www.eset.com">http://www.eset.com</a><br><br><br>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8709 (20130820) __________<br><br>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.<br><br><a href="http://www.eset.com">http://www.eset.com</a><br><br><br>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8710 (20130821) __________<br><br>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.<br><br><a href="http://www.eset.com">http://www.eset.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br><br>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8710 (20130821) __________<br><br>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.<br><br><a href="http://www.eset.com">http://www.eset.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>