<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><br>+101<br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Aug 21, 2013, at 9:16 AM, Ronald Van Putte <<a href="mailto:vanputter@gmail.com">vanputter@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>+1.<div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Aug 21, 2013, at 9:08 AM, mike mueller wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>My 50 years of experience in this sport has led me to this conclusion.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span> Despite judging issues most of the time the right person wins after all the scores are in.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span> A lot of work went into preparation for the Worlds. Judging being a huge part of that. They are the ones who see the flights and are asked to grade them.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;"><span> I'd tend to trust them and the system that produced them.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span> World Championship competitions are a lot more than a single person and team taking home the trophy. It's a chance for like people from all over the world to share their passion for the sport. No losers in my opinion because everyone gets to experience the spectacle that it is.</span></div><div></div><div> </div><div>Mike Mueller</div><div> Customer Services </div><div> F3AUnlimited</div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Vincebrc <<a href="mailto:vincebrc@gmail.com">vincebrc@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:45 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv8769225603"><div><div>After having the chance to see some raw scores I concluded that judges are very well calibrated. If they keep working like that I am sure the best pilots will win.</div><div><br></div><div>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Aug 20, 2013, at 9:42 PM, Ronald Van Putte <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vanputter@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vanputter@gmail.com">vanputter@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>And then there's the guy with the Vanquish. But, now that I think about it, it's unique too, because his is the only Vanquish there. Never mind.......<div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br><div><div>On Aug 20, 2013, at 9:31 PM, Chuck Hochhalter wrote:</div><br class="yiv8769225603Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>That would work if they had identical planes, but you have the ALFERMA, asylur, trigantic, galactic a, Each plane unique to its pilot.<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Aug 20, 2013, at 5:07 PM, Randy Forbus <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:rforbus@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:rforbus@hotmail.com">rforbus@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<div dir="ltr">They should hide all the contestants from the judges and let them score the flight and not the flyer<br> <br><div><hr id="yiv8769225603stopSpelling">From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:klhoard@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:klhoard@hotmail.com">klhoard@hotmail.com</a><br>To: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:03:54 -0500<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest<br><br>
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<div>Hmmmm. . . . pedigree. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>So, have the Labra-Doodles score the German Shepherds and so forth . .
.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Very interesting. . .</div>
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<div> </div>
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<div><b>From:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="rcmaster199@aol.com" ymailto="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:57 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none;display:inline;"><font color="black" size="2" face="arial">
<div><font style="background-color:transparent;">What oftentimes is referred to
as Bias is more a Calibration issue that Bias, methinks...</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>20 judges from 20 countries who have no actual means of practicing the art
of Judging in each others' countries, are bound to score very differently from
one another, regardless of what the good book sez.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>One way to counter the calibration (lack of I should say) issue is to have
judges with a known pedigree in a team or a pool, similar to how other sports
such as Figure Skating do it. The size of the team could be as many as 50, from
a variety of countries, that are tasked to judge the various Finals competitions
around the world. FAI pays the bill of course. New blood enters when their
pedigree is proven</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regards</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Matt<br><br><br></div>
<div style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original
Message-----<br>From: Derek Koopowitz <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a>><br>To:
'General pattern discussion' <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>Sent:
Tue, Aug 20, 2013 11:39 am<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A
contest<br><br>
<div id="yiv8769225603ecxAOLMsgPart_2_c661276b-8385-47c2-ac45-bcfdc7cb6422">
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<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;">It is really
hard to get all 20 judges to be biased especially when they come from all over…
in the prelims, if one looks at the scores, there are 5 judges scoring and if
the range is somewhat narrow on a maneuver then I really doubt there is bias or
collusion – they are obviously seeing the same thing. None of us were
there to see what the conditions were like and based on what I’ve heard they
were REALLY challenging… </span></div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;">We flew in 25
mph winds at the Nats this year, pretty much down the runway… and I know how
challenging that was… I saw MANY good Masters pilots struggle (one’s that
finished in the top 4 in Masters) with the box and a LOT of them were going out
the box on the left side. All the scores that I gave them were well
deserved…</span></div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;"></span> </div>
<div>
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<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael S. Harrison<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013
5:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest</span></div></div></div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;">biased
amateurs,,,,</span></div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;"></span> </div>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181, 196, 223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in;">
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Keith Hoard<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28
PM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest</span></div></div></div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal">So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other
contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div></div>
<div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"><br>On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07,
"George Kennie" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:geobet4evr@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:geobet4evr@gmail.com">geobet4evr@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal">I think that many of these international judges have been
uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are
operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant
discrepancies in their scoring awards.</div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal">Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here
comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other
judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore
thumb I'd better do likewise"</div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal">Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that
everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in
Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the
surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't
think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations
regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth
all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission
is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that.
Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an
opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were
not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
</div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal">I was convinced that the whole international panel could
have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards,
but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
</div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal">Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original
conclusion.</div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal">G.</div></div></div>
<div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal">On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:schale1@verizon.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:schale1@verizon.net">schale1@verizon.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<div class="yiv8769225603ecxMsoNormal">Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise
an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For
most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they
would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really
deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error
or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of
us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they
upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any
10's given out?<br>I know the top fliers are difficult to di</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></div></blockquote></body></html>