<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Yes, sonny, I do. However, Don Lowe and Ron Chidgey still dabble in pattern, so I can't claim to BE the oldest pattern pilot around these days.<div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br><div><div>On Aug 21, 2013, at 1:44 PM, Keith Hoard wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" dir="ltr">
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<div>You **think** ???</div>
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<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="vanputter@gmail.com" href="mailto:vanputter@gmail.com">Ronald Van Putte</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:41 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">I
think I'm about the oldest pattern pilot around these days, so I feel well
qualified to comment. I can't fly as well as I used to, partly
because I can't see as well as I used to, despite four eye surgeries to
try to correct the problems. That being said, I will continue to fly in
the Master class for two reasons. First, I have seen many Advanced class
pilots perform and most of them would beat me too. Second, I occasionally
do beat a fellow Master class pilot or two and it brings me great satisfaction.
<div> </div>
<div>Ron Van Putte</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>On Aug 21, 2013, at 8:28 AM, mike mueller wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; POSITION: static; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); Z-INDEX: auto; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">
<div><span> I know a lot of guys who have been coming to just about
every contest for years who have never broken into the top half of their
classes.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"><span>Some
don't seem to care about standings and like flying in their classes. That's OK
as long as they participate and have fun doing it.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"><span>I
honestly didn't know the rules were in place to accommodate our fliers. So
while it's a nice debate it's somewhat moot.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"><span>Now
that I know this rule I will be telling guys about it because I feel
many do not know.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"><span>Thanks
all for the insightful input. </span></div>
<div></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Mike Mueller</div>
<div>Customer Services </div>
<div> </div>
<div>F3Aunlimited</div>
<div> </div>
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<hr size="1">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b>
Ron Hansen <<a href="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com">rcpilot@wowway.com</a>><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion' <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 21,
2013 6:41 AM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea<br></font></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">I
suspect the main reason for this discussion is to allow our aging pilots to
move down.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">How
many CDs out there and/or competitors would object to a masters pilot as an
example moving down to advanced because he can't see well enough to continue
flying masters.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">I
for one would not. I would rather they continue to compete rather than hang it
up.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Perhaps
those pilots that move down could disqualify themselves from District
championship contention and/or trophy consideration for local contest (i.e.,
they would be flying for fun).</span></div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Ron</span></div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net">ronlock@comcast.net</a><br><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, August 20, 2013 9:51 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bob Kane; General pattern
discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty
idea</span></div></div></div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black">I suspect that
may have been the case. I think the rule is support for the peer
pressure that</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black">generally
works well. I hope the new wording of "should move" doesn't erode the
system. If the class</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black">system goes
away....do we then call it a pattern fly in?
<VBG></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black">Ron
Lockhart</span></div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black">
<hr align="center" size="3" width="100%">
</span></div>
<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black">From: </span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black">"Bob Kane" <<a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a>><br><b>To:
</b>"General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br><b>Sent:
</b>Tuesday, August 20, 2013 9:44:05 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea</span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">This rule has been in place longer than I have been
flying pattern. There must have been some compelling reason to implement
it as the only thing that never changes is resistance to change.
There must have been some glaring examples of sandbagging going on.
</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">Bob Kane<br><a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center"><span style="COLOR: black">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: black"> Dave
Burton <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>><br><b>To:</b>
'General pattern discussion' <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:08 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div id="yiv4538334643">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">AMA
has never kept up with points/classes, etc. at least in the 40+ years
I’ve been flying pattern. And today’s AMA has almost no interest
in any competition other than for whatever dollars may be involved in the
Muncie flying sites (if any). Unfortunately most of the membership feels the
same way I guess.</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dave</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Gayer<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:42
PM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div></div></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div>
<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">You
will note that there is no specific consideration in the rule for the
competitor that says " I made a mistake moving up, I was not ready although I
thought I was and I would like to move back a class". The examples given would
lead one to believe that this "various reason" would not be accepted. And this
example is the key missing element that loses us competitors.<br>You will also
note that "various reasons" could mean anything. I thought the AMA tried
to stay away from ambiguous rules like this. <br>Quite frankly the AMA has
abrogated their responsibility to maintain the class distinctions under their
rules. If they want to keep lists of competitors and their classes,
advancement points and disqualify results for being in a lower class without
waiver, that would be fine. Right now the AMA maintain no lists of competitor
classes, points towards advancement or participation levels and should have
rules that reflect that lack of interest, leaving the SIG to self-police.
<br>John</span></div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">On 8/20/2013 12:43 PM, John Fuqua
wrote:</span></div></div></div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Here
is the rule:</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">8.1.2: Exception: </span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">Consideration will be given to
requests for reclassification to a lower class for various reasons, such as
disability or breaks from participation of several years. For a contestant
to be reclassified to a lower class, the contestant must petition via email
(or letter if email is not available) to the contestant's AMA District
Contest Board (CB) representative explaining the reasons for the
reclassification. The CB representative will forward a recommendation for
approval/disapproval to the AMA District Vice President (DVP). The AMA DVP
will concur/non-concur and forward the decision to the petitioner and AMA
District CB representative with an info copy to the AMA Technical
Director.</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"></span><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">Note that the petitioner goes to his
CB rep who actually makes the recommendation. My DVP has
always agreed with my recommendation and I see no reason why other DVPs
would act differently. All this is done via email so it should
not take more than a week or two at most. I always info the AMA Tech
Director as well just to keep him in the loop. </span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"></span><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">JohnF</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div>
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<div>
<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Gayer<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 20, 2013
12:01 PM<br><b>To:</b> mike mueller; General pattern
discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty
idea</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">Mike,<br>Thanks again for the loan of a very nice
airplane for the Fat Lake Pattern Meet. Glad Russ was able to buy it, it
will be a very good airplane for him. <br>The contest was very well run by
Bob Wilson and John Hoelscher and other members of the Peoria R/C Modelers.
I had a great time flying, meeting new folks and hanging out at the field in
Russell Shavitz' new RV parked in the middle of all that corn.<br><br>As
Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread and we discussed during the
contest, the rule change we proposed last year addressed the problem of
being able to move down a class at the end of the year. Others have pointed
out that there is a mechanism for doing this now. It involves petitioning
the AMA for a change in class. There are two problems with this system. One
is that there are some who quit rather than go through the process. Those
flyers are lost to us for long periods of time and may never return. I know
about that, I was one of them for a decade.<br>The second issue is that the
AMA VPs seldom(ever?) reject these petitions. They do not know the flyer and
his abilities, may(or may not) do a bit of research, and then approve the
petition. If they are always approved, what is the function of this process?
Why should we waste the time of the DVP? Leave it up to the competitor to
recognize that a move back one class would be good for him. Peer pressure
will take care of abusers - as it does now, not the
AMA.<br>John</span></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">On 8/19/2013 12:16 PM, mike mueller
wrote:</span></div></div></div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the
pleasure of having John Gayer from New Mexico attend and fly with
us.</span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the
sport.</span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time
only Amnesty period.</span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">It would allow any flier who has been a consistent
low placer in their class the ability to drop down at the end of a
season.</span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen
and the residual benefit from such a program could very well help to get
some guys back into the sport.</span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">What would it take to get such a program instituted?
</span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">What are the barriers that would stop this from being
put into the rules?</span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">Is there a potential downside to this that would make
it worse than what we have now?</span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">Mike Mueller</span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">Customer Services </span></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">F3aunlimited</span></div></div></div></div>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"><br><br></span></div></div><pre style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">_______________________________________________</span></pre><pre style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span></pre><pre style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></pre><pre style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></pre></blockquote>
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<div class="yiv4538334643MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div></div><pre style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">_______________________________________________</span></pre><pre style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black">NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span></pre><pre style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></pre><pre style="BACKGROUND: white"><span style="COLOR: black"><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></pre></blockquote>
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