<html><head><base href="x-msg://326/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I was the Nats event director in 1996 and 1997. I initiated the matrix system in 1997. Based on many sample contests that I ran on my computer, I decided that the top eight Master and FAI pilots should be seeded across the four groups. I had lost the 1996 Nats data due to a computer hard drive crash, so I asked the AMA technical director to provide me the data from that Nats. He could not find the data!<div><br></div><div>As Dave said,don't count on AMA to keep up with advancement points.<br><div><br></div><div>Ron Van Putte</div><div><br><div><div>On Aug 20, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Dave Burton wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">AMA has never kept up with points/classes, etc. at least in the 40+ years I’ve been flying pattern. And today’s AMA has almost no interest in any competition other than for whatever dollars may be involved in the Muncie flying sites (if any). Unfortunately most of the membership feels the same way I guess.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Dave<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Gayer<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:42 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; ">You will note that there is no specific consideration in the rule for the competitor that says " I made a mistake moving up, I was not ready although I thought I was and I would like to move back a class". The examples given would lead one to believe that this "various reason" would not be accepted. And this example is the key missing element that loses us competitors.<br>You will also note that "various reasons" could mean anything. I thought the AMA tried to stay away from ambiguous rules like this.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Quite frankly the AMA has abrogated their responsibility to maintain the class distinctions under their rules. If they want to keep lists of competitors and their classes, advancement points and disqualify results for being in a lower class without waiver, that would be fine. Right now the AMA maintain no lists of competitor classes, points towards advancement or participation levels and should have rules that reflect that lack of interest, leaving the SIG to self-police.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>John<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; ">On 8/20/2013 12:43 PM, John Fuqua wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Here is the rule:</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">8.1.2: Exception:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">Consideration will be given to requests for reclassification to a lower class for various reasons, such as disability or breaks from participation of several years. For a contestant to be reclassified to a lower class, the contestant must petition via email (or letter if email is not available) to the contestant's AMA District Contest Board (CB) representative explaining the reasons for the reclassification. The CB representative will forward a recommendation for approval/disapproval to the AMA District Vice President (DVP). The AMA DVP will concur/non-concur and forward the decision to the petitioner and AMA District CB representative with an info copy to the AMA Technical Director.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; "> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">Note that the petitioner goes to his CB rep who actually makes the recommendation. My DVP has always agreed with my recommendation and I see no reason why other DVPs would act differently. All this is done via email so it should not take more than a week or two at most. I always info the AMA Tech Director as well just to keep him in the loop. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; "> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">JohnF</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Gayer<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:01 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>mike mueller; General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; ">Mike,<br>Thanks again for the loan of a very nice airplane for the Fat Lake Pattern Meet. Glad Russ was able to buy it, it will be a very good airplane for him.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>The contest was very well run by Bob Wilson and John Hoelscher and other members of the Peoria R/C Modelers. I had a great time flying, meeting new folks and hanging out at the field in Russell Shavitz' new RV parked in the middle of all that corn.<br><br>As Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread and we discussed during the contest, the rule change we proposed last year addressed the problem of being able to move down a class at the end of the year. Others have pointed out that there is a mechanism for doing this now. It involves petitioning the AMA for a change in class. There are two problems with this system. One is that there are some who quit rather than go through the process. Those flyers are lost to us for long periods of time and may never return. I know about that, I was one of them for a decade.<br>The second issue is that the AMA VPs seldom(ever?) reject these petitions. They do not know the flyer and his abilities, may(or may not) do a bit of research, and then approve the petition. If they are always approved, what is the function of this process? Why should we waste the time of the DVP? Leave it up to the competitor to recognize that a move back one class would be good for him. Peer pressure will take care of abusers - as it does now, not the AMA.<br>John<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; ">On 8/19/2013 12:16 PM, mike mueller wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer from New Mexico attend and fly with us.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into the sport.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> What would it take to get such a program instituted? <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we have now?<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">Mike Mueller<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">Customer Services <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">F3aunlimited<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; ">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; ">NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; "><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; "><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; ">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; ">NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; "><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; "><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>