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I hope everyone realizes that I was not suggesting the AMA is or
should be keeping track of competitors and points, only that since
they were not, they should get out of the class advancement rule
business.<br>
<br>
Ice cream for all.....at next years Nats pilot's meeting.<br>
John<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/20/2013 2:22 PM, Ronald Van Putte
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:AF9ED33D-92E6-498B-95B4-DD048A25189C@cox.net"
type="cite"><base href="x-msg://326/">I was the Nats event
director in 1996 and 1997. I initiated the matrix system in 1997.
Based on many sample contests that I ran on my computer, I
decided that the top eight Master and FAI pilots should be seeded
across the four groups. I had lost the 1996 Nats data due to a
computer hard drive crash, so I asked the AMA technical director
to provide me the data from that Nats. He could not find the
data!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As Dave said,don't count on AMA to keep up with advancement
points.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron Van Putte</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Aug 20, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Dave Burton wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Arial;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing:
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<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple"
lang="EN-US">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; ">
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">AMA has never kept up with
points/classes, etc. at least in the 40+ years
I’ve been flying pattern. And today’s AMA has
almost no interest in any competition other than
for whatever dollars may be involved in the
Muncie flying sites (if any). Unfortunately most
of the membership feels the same way I guess.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
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font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Dave<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
<div>
<div style="border-right-style: none;
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<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
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font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif; color: black; "><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext; ">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif; color: windowtext; "><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration:
underline; ">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
Gayer<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
August 20, 2013 2:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General
pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in;
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in;
margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; ">You will
note that there is no specific consideration in
the rule for the competitor that says " I made a
mistake moving up, I was not ready although I
thought I was and I would like to move back a
class". The examples given would lead one to
believe that this "various reason" would not be
accepted. And this example is the key missing
element that loses us competitors.<br>
You will also note that "various reasons" could
mean anything. I thought the AMA tried to stay
away from ambiguous rules like this.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Quite frankly the AMA has abrogated their
responsibility to maintain the class distinctions
under their rules. If they want to keep lists of
competitors and their classes, advancement points
and disqualify results for being in a lower class
without waiver, that would be fine. Right now the
AMA maintain no lists of competitor classes,
points towards advancement or participation levels
and should have rules that reflect that lack of
interest, leaving the SIG to self-police.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; ">On 8/20/2013 12:43 PM,
John Fuqua wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom:
5pt; ">
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Here is the rule:</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; ">8.1.2: Exception:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; ">Consideration will
be given to requests for reclassification to a
lower class for various reasons, such as
disability or breaks from participation of
several years. For a contestant to be
reclassified to a lower class, the contestant
must petition via email (or letter if email is
not available) to the contestant's AMA
District Contest Board (CB) representative
explaining the reasons for the
reclassification. The CB representative will
forward a recommendation for
approval/disapproval to the AMA District Vice
President (DVP). The AMA DVP will
concur/non-concur and forward the decision to
the petitioner and AMA District CB
representative with an info copy to the AMA
Technical Director.</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size:
10pt; "> </span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size:
10pt; ">Note that the petitioner goes to his
CB rep who actually makes the recommendation.
My DVP has always agreed with my
recommendation and I see no reason why other
DVPs would act differently. All this is done
via email so it should not take more than a
week or two at most. I always info the AMA
Tech Director as well just to keep him in the
loop. </span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size:
10pt; "> </span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size:
10pt; ">JohnF</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div>
<div style="border-right-style: none;
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<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext; ">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext; "><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration:
underline; ">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration:
underline; ">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
Gayer<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
August 20, 2013 12:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>mike
mueller; General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea</span><o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; color: black; ">Mike,<br>
Thanks again for the loan of a very nice
airplane for the Fat Lake Pattern Meet. Glad
Russ was able to buy it, it will be a very good
airplane for him.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
The contest was very well run by Bob Wilson and
John Hoelscher and other members of the Peoria
R/C Modelers. I had a great time flying, meeting
new folks and hanging out at the field in
Russell Shavitz' new RV parked in the middle of
all that corn.<br>
<br>
As Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread
and we discussed during the contest, the rule
change we proposed last year addressed the
problem of being able to move down a class at
the end of the year. Others have pointed out
that there is a mechanism for doing this now. It
involves petitioning the AMA for a change in
class. There are two problems with this system.
One is that there are some who quit rather than
go through the process. Those flyers are lost to
us for long periods of time and may never
return. I know about that, I was one of them for
a decade.<br>
The second issue is that the AMA VPs
seldom(ever?) reject these petitions. They do
not know the flyer and his abilities, may(or may
not) do a bit of research, and then approve the
petition. If they are always approved, what is
the function of this process? Why should we
waste the time of the DVP? Leave it up to the
competitor to recognize that a move back one
class would be good for him. Peer pressure will
take care of abusers - as it does now, not the
AMA.<br>
John<o:p></o:p></div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif; color: black; ">On 8/19/2013
12:16 PM, mike mueller wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom:
5pt; ">
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black;
background-image: initial;
background-attachment: initial;
background-origin: initial;
background-clip: initial;
background-color: white; ">At the Peoria
contest this weekend we had the pleasure
of having John Gayer from New Mexico
attend and fly with us.<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> We
got into a discussion about ideas to grow
the sport.<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> One
I brought up and it's nothing new is a one
time only Amnesty period.<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> It
would allow any flier who has been a
consistent low placer in their class the
ability to drop down at the end of a
season.<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> It
seems clear to me that this really needs
to happen and the residual benefit from
such a program could very well help to get
some guys back into the sport.<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> What
would it take to get such a program
instituted? <o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> What
are the barriers that would stop this from
being put into the rules?<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "> Is
there a potential downside to this that
would make it worse than what we have now?<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
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'Times New Roman', serif; color: black;
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background-color: white; "> <o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black;
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background-color: white; ">Mike Mueller<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
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'Times New Roman', serif; color: black;
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background-color: white; ">Customer
Services <o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
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0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black;
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background-color: white; "> <o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right:
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0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif; color: black;
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background-color: white; ">F3aunlimited<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></div>
<pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; ">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; ">NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; "><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; "><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
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<pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; ">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; ">NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; "><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; "><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
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href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></div>
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