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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>+1 (again, just for you RVP)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have long advocated that ANY criteria that can not be OBJECTIVELY defined should not be a criteria. Obviously enough, the majority (or ruling class at least) do not agree, as the number of subjective elements have grown, and in FAI are now a percentage of the maneuver even though specific downgrades are still not quantified.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>RVP –<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>+1 is shorthand for “I agree”….or another agrees….if you want to pick up the cool kids lingo…..and you agree to a “+1”……you say “+2”. Being an engineer, I’m sure you know what is next </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jon Lowe<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging question for the experts<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Hey, at least they get to deal in tenth's of points. We deal only in whole points judging FAI. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>But I agree, geometry seems to have gotten lost in the quest for constant speed, smoothness and gracefulness. I can't define a too tight or too loose radius. I can define heading changes, radii changes, 1 point per 15 degrees, perecnt out of the box, etc. It seems FAI is heading into the subjective rather than objective criteria for judging, ie "impression" judging.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Jon</span></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Dave Lockhart <<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>><br>To: 'General pattern discussion' <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>Sent: Tue, Feb 26, 2013 7:16 pm<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging question for the experts<o:p></o:p></span></p><div id="AOLMsgPart_2_b3aa41f2-6068-4872-8ac2-eeb6534ef08f"><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>+1</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentColor currentColor'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:flyintexan@att.net">flyintexan@att.net</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 25, 2013 8:24 AM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging question for the experts<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>How soon before we hire figure skating judges?<br><br>-Mark<br>Sent from my phone.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="htc_header"><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>----- Reply message -----<br>From: "Andre Bouchard" <<a href="mailto:txf3a@entouch.net">txf3a@entouch.net</a>><br>To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging question for the experts<br>Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2013 11:14 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Don,</span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>This question of course relates to the </span></span><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Annex 5B – F3 R/C Aerobatic Power Model Aircraft Manoeuvre Execution Guide, Section 5B.9...</span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>5B.9 <b>SMOOTHNESS AND GRACEFULNESS OF THE MANOEUVRE </b><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>"Concerns the harmonic appearance of an entire manoeuvre. Ie maintaining a constant flight speed throughout the various manoeuvre components, like in climbing and descending sections contributes significantly to smoothness and gracefulness. Radii performed very tight or very loose, though being of equal size within one manoeuvre may be subject for downgrading Smoothness and Gracefulness."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>If the radii are very abrupt the maneuver would not be "smooth and graceful." Similarly, if the radii are very loose the maneuver elements would likely not be well defined (not graceful?). I think "very" is the key word - beyond expectation, not normally seen, etc. Extending that thought, I think this would be a uncommon downgrade.</span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Stating the obvious here...there are no technical criteria for what constitutes "very tight or very loose" radii. The criteria are subjective.</span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Regards,</span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Andre Bouchard</span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>On Feb 24, 2013, at 9:13 PM, <a href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A question on radius judging. Tight radius (or loose radius) manevuer segments are subject to downgrade in FAI. What constitutes a tight radius? Physically tight (in feet, for example), or tight (fast speed through the radius giving the impression that the plane is pulling excessive g's, however that is interpreted). A slow flying radius could be extremely tight, for example the last radius at the bottom of the triangle loop (135 degree pull) or figure Z.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Don<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div id="AOLMsgPart_3_b3aa41f2-6068-4872-8ac2-eeb6534ef08f"><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre></div></div></div></body></html>