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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor="#CCFFFF" lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>When I first started, I thought I heard after a certain point, it was $100 per ounce to shed weight… LOL<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Verne Koester<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 07, 2012 10:52 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery Questions<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’ve seen guys spend $100 or more to get rid of an ounce on their planes. I’m just sayin….<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Verne<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>PhilS.<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 07, 2012 9:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery Questions<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>OK, so if my calculations are correct</span>, a 10% difference in nitro amounts to a 0.14% difference in weight. In a 20-oz tank of fuel, I can't think that will make a noticeable difference in overall aircraft weight or balance. So, doing all thehigher math -- actually, since the fuel is going to fly, we must get into computational fluid dynamics! ;-{) -- I calculate that 20 oz of 25% fuel weighs 0.96 oz more than a 20oz tank of 14% nitro. If my calcs are correct, that is hardly anything to write home about!!!<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Phil Spelt, KCRC President<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>SPA 177 Board Member<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal><br>On 12/7/2012 8:17 PM, Dave Burton wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Actually it does! nitro is approx 9.4 lbs per gal, methanol is approx 6.7 lbs per gal.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>PhilS.<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 07, 2012 7:45 PM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery Questions</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sorry, Verne, more Nitro doesn't cost us more weight. ;-{)</span><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Phil Spelt, KCRC President<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>SPA 177 Board Member<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal><br>On 12/7/2012 7:15 PM, Verne Koester wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Larry, 20C is 10% nitro, 40C is 40% nitro. Like nitro, more C is more weight as well in most cases. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I fly Masters with 20C batteries and have my throttle governed back to make it easier to manage the excess power. I started last season with 25C batteries and had to govern it back even more. Using 40C batteries would be like sticking a YS 170 on a 110-size plane while probably putting you over the weight limit.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Verne</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Larry Diamond<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 07, 2012 6:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery Questions</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'>Interesting point... I don't understand how changing from 20C to 40C pack makes a difference using the same Motor and ESC combo. If it's battery heat, my electronics background would tell me the pack is probably being dicharged too deep. Not good for the life of a battery.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I suspect the result of not changing the Motor/ESC and only changing the battery will reult in a shorter battery life; and, over loading the power plant which will probably result in damaging the ESC and/or the Motor.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I could be wrong, cause I really have no experience with electric power set ups in planes. I just don't understand the logic going from 20C to 40C and the result being "too hot for intermediate".</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>It wouldn't surprise me to see Masters or FAI having a higher power set up, like 3,500 to 4,000+ watts. Then depending on the max current draw, 40C may make sense.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>My set up will be about 2,700 to 3,000 watts based on specs... It may not be sufficient for Masters or FAI.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Perhaps this will turn out to be a good constructive discussion for a number of people like me, but I'm curious as to other opinions who have practicle knowledge.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Larry Diamond</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Patrick Harris <<a href="mailto:harris7148@gmail.com">harris7148@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 7, 2012 2:02 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery Questions</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div id=yiv1745728499><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Larry,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'>You have received all good advice. One thing to keep in mind, is you are not going to be able to fly two full sequences with pretty much any setup. With the Himax in a Monolog flying Intermediate, 20C's are going to be perfect. With 20C's and good throttle management you are going to be able to fly the full Intermediate and maybe four or five more maneuvers. If you go up to 40C, you will find the Himax way to hot for Intermediate, and you won't add that much flying time. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'>Another thing about the Himax is it really needs an aggressive throttle curve on the bottom. If you just fly it out of the box it will have zip for low end and nuts for high end all at about mid throttle. On the low end, you will just keep pushing and pushing and nothing seems to happen until you hit mid throttle and it will go nuts. The best throttle curve on my Himax looks like a snake. It ramps up really fast on the low end, tappers off at mid throttle and then heads back up on the high end, but you need to work it out for your set up. Trust me, spending a good amount of time getting this right is going to pay big dividends. If you don't, your uplines are going to be way too hot.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'>Hey Larry,<br><br>As everyone is telling you, the BIG difference between what you're proposing and what you're accustomed to with Glg to below is that you'll fly 90% of your sequence at half throttle. Not figuratively half throttle... but literally half, or below. Even a vertical upline does not need full motor on these setups. Flying intermediate even less so. Also, at full throttle you'll likely only pull about 75amps, so even 15C batteries would get the job done, but I would stick with 20 and higher.<br><br><br>Mark Atwood<br>Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President<br>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124<br>Phone: </span><span class=MsoHyperlink>440.684.3101 x102</span><span style='color:black'> | Fax: </span><span class=MsoHyperlink>440.684.3102</span><span style='color:black'><br><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>> | <a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">http://www.paragon-inc.com/</a><<a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">http://www.paragon-inc.com/</a>><br><br><br><br><br>On Dec 7, 2012, at 1:37 PM, Larry Diamond wrote:<br><br>OK, play nice... Never dealt with electrics before... I could be way off base, but here is a stab at it...<br><br>Is my math flawed?<br><br>Motor - Himax 6330-210 F3A Motor (210KV)<br>ESC - Phoenix Ice 80HV - New V2 Version<br>Battery 10s - 37VDC<br><br>Plane - 2M Monolog<br><br>Max power range is about ~2,700 to ~3,000 watts with this set up...<br><br>Calculated Battery Discharge Rate = 80Amps (ESC rating) divided by 3,500mAh (battery capacity) = 22.9C<br><br>Based on this math I suspect that a 30C dicharge rate is good on paper... additional discharge performane = $$$ and I don't want to spend money on battery performance I don't need...<br><br>Class - Intermediate<br><br>What is the recommended battery capacity and discharge rate...?<br><br>I understand the many variables associated with the answer like, prop size, temps, wind, throttle control, yada, yada, yada...<br><br>I would like to fly the Intermediate sequence a couple time without having to refuel electrons...<br><br>Larry Diamond<br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;-moz-background-clip: border;-moz-background-origin: padding;-moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:0%;background-attachment:scroll'><span style='color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></pre><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=1 width="100%" noshade style='color:#ACA899' align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2634/5942 - Release Date: 12/06/12<o:p></o:p></p><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></pre></div></body></html>