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<DIV>Let’s stop writing about it then. Last note however, if you ever
handle 55 gal drums of glow fuel, you will definitely notice the large weight
difference between 15% and 30% nitro.</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=chuenkan@comcast.net
href="mailto:chuenkan@comcast.net">PhilS.</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 07, 2012 9:09 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT
face=Arial>OK, so if my calculations are correct</FONT>, a 10% difference in
nitro amounts to a 0.14% difference in weight. In a 20-oz tank of fuel, I
can't think that will make a noticeable difference in overall aircraft weight or
balance. So, doing all thehigher math -- actually, since the fuel is going
to fly, we must get into computational fluid dynamics! ;-{) -- I calculate
that 20 oz of 25% fuel weighs 0.96 oz more than a 20oz tank of 14% nitro.
If my calcs are correct, that is hardly anything to write home about!!!<BR><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Phil Spelt, KCRC President
AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member
SPA 177 Board Member
(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c</PRE><BR>On 12/7/2012 8:17 PM, Dave Burton wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:00f501cdd4e1$d7ccdd70$87669850$@net type="cite">
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Actually
it does! nitro is approx 9.4 lbs per gal, methanol is approx 6.7 lbs per
gal.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>PhilS.<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 07, 2012 7:45
PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sorry,
Verne, more Nitro doesn't cost us more weight.
;-{)</SPAN><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P><PRE>Phil Spelt, KCRC President<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>SPA 177 Board Member<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c<o:p></o:p></PRE>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR>On 12/7/2012 7:15 PM, Verne Koester wrote:
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Larry, 20C is
10% nitro, 40C is 40% nitro. Like nitro, more C is more weight as well in most
cases. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">I fly Masters
with 20C batteries and have my throttle governed back to make it easier to
manage the excess power. I started last season with 25C batteries and had to
govern it back even more. Using 40C batteries would be like sticking a YS 170
on a 110-size plane while probably putting you over the weight
limit.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Verne</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Larry Diamond<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 07, 2012
6:18 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Interesting point... I don't
understand how changing from 20C to 40C pack makes a difference using the same
Motor and ESC combo. If it's battery heat, my electronics background would
tell me the pack is probably being dicharged too deep. Not good for the life
of a battery.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I suspect the result of not
changing the Motor/ESC and only changing the battery will reult in a shorter
battery life; and, over loading the power plant which will probably result in
damaging the ESC and/or the Motor.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I could be wrong, cause I really
have no experience with electric power set ups in planes. I just don't
understand the logic going from 20C to 40C and the result being "too hot for
intermediate".</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It wouldn't surprise me to see
Masters or FAI having a higher power set up, like 3,500 to 4,000+ watts. Then
depending on the max current draw, 40C may make
sense.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">My set up will be about 2,700 to
3,000 watts based on specs... It may not be sufficient for Masters or
FAI.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Perhaps this will turn out to be
a good constructive discussion for a number of people like me, but I'm curious
as to other opinions who have practicle knowledge.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Larry
Diamond</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Patrick Harris <<A href="mailto:harris7148@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">harris7148@gmail.com</A>><BR><B>To:</B> General
pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 7, 2012 2:02 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV id=yiv1745728499>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Larry,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">You have received all good advice.
One thing to keep in mind, is you are not going to be able to fly two full
sequences with pretty much any setup. With the Himax in a Monolog flying
Intermediate, 20C's are going to be perfect. With 20C's and good throttle
management you are going to be able to fly the full Intermediate and maybe
four or five more maneuvers. If you go up to 40C, you will find the Himax way
to hot for Intermediate, and you won't add that much flying time.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Another thing about the Himax is it
really needs an aggressive throttle curve on the bottom. If you just fly it
out of the box it will have zip for low end and nuts for high end all at about
mid throttle. On the low end, you will just keep pushing and pushing and
nothing seems to happen until you hit mid throttle and it will go nuts. The
best throttle curve on my Himax looks like a snake. It ramps up really fast on
the low end, tappers off at mid throttle and then heads back up on the high
end, but you need to work it out for your set up. Trust me, spending a good
amount of time getting this right is going to pay big dividends. If you don't,
your uplines are going to be way too hot.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hey Larry,<BR><BR>As everyone is
telling you, the BIG difference between what you're proposing and what you're
accustomed to with Glg to below is that you'll fly 90% of your sequence at
half throttle. Not figuratively half throttle... but literally half, or
below. Even a vertical upline does not need full motor on these
setups. Flying intermediate even less so. Also, at
full throttle you'll likely only pull about 75amps, so even 15C batteries
would get the job done, but I would stick with 20 and higher.<BR><BR><BR>Mark
Atwood<BR>Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President<BR>5885 Landerbrook
Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124<BR>Phone: </SPAN><SPAN
class=MsoHyperlink>440.684.3101 x102</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black">
| Fax: </SPAN><SPAN class=MsoHyperlink>440.684.3102</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><BR><A href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com"
target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A><mailto:<A
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A>> | <A
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.paragon-inc.com/</A><<A
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.paragon-inc.com/</A>><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On
Dec 7, 2012, at 1:37 PM, Larry Diamond wrote:<BR><BR>OK, play nice... Never
dealt with electrics before... I could be way off base, but here is a stab at
it...<BR><BR>Is my math flawed?<BR><BR>Motor - Himax 6330-210 F3A Motor
(210KV)<BR>ESC - Phoenix Ice 80HV - New V2 Version<BR>Battery 10s -
37VDC<BR><BR>Plane - 2M Monolog<BR><BR>Max power range is about ~2,700 to
~3,000 watts with this set up...<BR><BR>Calculated Battery Discharge Rate =
80Amps (ESC rating) divided by 3,500mAh (battery capacity) =
22.9C<BR><BR>Based on this math I suspect that a 30C dicharge rate is good on
paper... additional discharge performane = $$$ and I don't want to spend money
on battery performance I don't need...<BR><BR>Class - Intermediate<BR><BR>What
is the recommended battery capacity and discharge rate...?<BR><BR>I understand
the many variables associated with the answer like, prop size, temps, wind,
throttle control, yada, yada, yada...<BR><BR>I would like to fly the
Intermediate sequence a couple time without having to refuel
electrons...<BR><BR>Larry
Diamond<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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