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<DIV>Here’s one place to look for some comparisons:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A title=http://www.klotznitromethane.com/
href="http://www.klotznitromethane.com/">http://www.klotznitromethane.com/</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=chuenkan@comcast.net
href="mailto:chuenkan@comcast.net">PhilS.</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 07, 2012 8:43 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT
face=Arial>Hmmm -- didn't know that. Is it a significant
weight increase, say, for 20 oz of fuel with 25% nitro vs 15%
nitro???</FONT><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Phil Spelt, KCRC President
AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member
SPA 177 Board Member
(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c</PRE><BR>On 12/7/2012 8:03 PM, Ed Alt wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:SNT138-ds10D2A2FDA2278273199A22E84B0@phx.gbl type="cite">
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Assuming that you’re not discussing weighing the airplane for rules
compliance, a higher nitro percentage for a given volume of glow fuel
definitely does increase the weight of that volume of fuel, i.e., a heavier
takeoff weight.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ed</DIV>
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<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=chuenkan@comcast.net
href="mailto:chuenkan@comcast.net" moz-do-not-send="true">PhilS.</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 07, 2012 7:44 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send="true">General
pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT
face=Arial>Sorry, Verne, more Nitro doesn't cost us more weight.
;-{)</FONT><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Phil Spelt, KCRC President
AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member
SPA 177 Board Member
(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c</PRE><BR>On 12/7/2012 7:15 PM, Verne Koester
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:006f01cdd4d9$29fbec20$7df3c460$@twmi.rr.com
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Larry, 20C
is 10% nitro, 40C is 40% nitro. Like nitro, more C is more weight as well in
most cases. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">I fly
Masters with 20C batteries and have my throttle governed back to make it
easier to manage the excess power. I started last season with 25C batteries
and had to govern it back even more. Using 40C batteries would be like
sticking a YS 170 on a 110-size plane while probably putting you over the
weight limit.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Verne<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Larry Diamond<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 07, 2012
6:18 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Interesting point... I don't
understand how changing from 20C to 40C pack makes a difference using the
same Motor and ESC combo. If it's battery heat, my electronics background
would tell me the pack is probably being dicharged too deep. Not good for
the life of a battery.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I suspect the result of not
changing the Motor/ESC and only changing the battery will reult in a shorter
battery life; and, over loading the power plant which will probably result
in damaging the ESC and/or the Motor.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I could be wrong, cause I
really have no experience with electric power set ups in planes. I just
don't understand the logic going from 20C to 40C and the result being "too
hot for intermediate".<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It wouldn't surprise me to see
Masters or FAI having a higher power set up, like 3,500 to 4,000+ watts.
Then depending on the max current draw, 40C may make
sense.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">My set up will be about 2,700
to 3,000 watts based on specs... It may not be sufficient for Masters or
FAI.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Perhaps this will turn out to
be a good constructive discussion for a number of people like me, but I'm
curious as to other opinions who have practicle
knowledge.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Larry
Diamond<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Patrick Harris <<A href="mailto:harris7148@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">harris7148@gmail.com</A>><BR><B>To:</B> General
pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 7, 2012 2:02 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery Questions</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<DIV id=yiv1745728499>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Larry,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">You have received all good
advice. One thing to keep in mind, is you are not going to be able to fly
two full sequences with pretty much any setup. With the Himax in a Monolog
flying Intermediate, 20C's are going to be perfect. With 20C's and good
throttle management you are going to be able to fly the full Intermediate
and maybe four or five more maneuvers. If you go up to 40C, you will find
the Himax way to hot for Intermediate, and you won't add that much flying
time. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Another thing about the Himax is
it really needs an aggressive throttle curve on the bottom. If you just fly
it out of the box it will have zip for low end and nuts for high end all at
about mid throttle. On the low end, you will just keep pushing and pushing
and nothing seems to happen until you hit mid throttle and it will go nuts.
The best throttle curve on my Himax looks like a snake. It ramps up really
fast on the low end, tappers off at mid throttle and then heads back up on
the high end, but you need to work it out for your set up. Trust me,
spending a good amount of time getting this right is going to pay big
dividends. If you don't, your uplines are going to be way too
hot.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: white; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hey Larry,<BR><BR>As everyone is
telling you, the BIG difference between what you're proposing and what
you're accustomed to with Glg to below is that you'll fly 90% of your
sequence at half throttle. Not figuratively half throttle... but
literally half, or below. Even a vertical upline does not need full
motor on these setups. Flying intermediate even less
so. Also, at full throttle you'll likely only pull about 75amps,
so even 15C batteries would get the job done, but I would stick with 20 and
higher.<BR><BR><BR>Mark Atwood<BR>Paragon Consulting, Inc. |
President<BR>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio,
44124<BR>Phone: <SPAN class=MsoHyperlink>440.684.3101 x102</SPAN>
| Fax: <SPAN class=MsoHyperlink>440.684.3102</SPAN><BR><A
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A><mailto:<A
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A>> | <A
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.paragon-inc.com/</A><<A
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.paragon-inc.com/</A>><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On
Dec 7, 2012, at 1:37 PM, Larry Diamond wrote:<BR><BR>OK, play nice... Never
dealt with electrics before... I could be way off base, but here is a stab
at it...<BR><BR>Is my math flawed?<BR><BR>Motor - Himax 6330-210 F3A Motor
(210KV)<BR>ESC - Phoenix Ice 80HV - New V2 Version<BR>Battery 10s -
37VDC<BR><BR>Plane - 2M Monolog<BR><BR>Max power range is about ~2,700 to
~3,000 watts with this set up...<BR><BR>Calculated Battery Discharge Rate =
80Amps (ESC rating) divided by 3,500mAh (battery capacity) =
22.9C<BR><BR>Based on this math I suspect that a 30C dicharge rate is good
on paper... additional discharge performane = $$$ and I don't want to spend
money on battery performance I don't need...<BR><BR>Class -
Intermediate<BR><BR>What is the recommended battery capacity and discharge
rate...?<BR><BR>I understand the many variables associated with the answer
like, prop size, temps, wind, throttle control, yada, yada, yada...<BR><BR>I
would like to fly the Intermediate sequence a couple time without having to
refuel electrons...<BR><BR>Larry
Diamond<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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