<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#cc0000" bgcolor="#ccffff">
<font face="Arial">Right, Ed, have handled 25%, not 30%. However, I
don't plan to fly a 55-gal drum. lol</font><br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Phil Spelt, KCRC President
AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member
SPA 177 Board Member
(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c</pre>
<br>
On 12/7/2012 9:13 PM, Ed Alt wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:SNT138-ds1482E6D9AE925605DBD723E84B0@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>Let’s stop writing about it then. Last note however, if you
ever handle 55 gal drums of glow fuel, you will definitely notice the
large weight difference between 15% and 30% nitro.</div>
<div
style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div
style="font-family: tahoma; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">
<div> </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(245, 245, 245) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">
<div style=""><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="chuenkan@comcast.net" href="mailto:chuenkan@comcast.net">PhilS.</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 07, 2012 9:09 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;"><font
face="Arial">OK, so if my calculations are correct</font>, a 10%
difference in nitro amounts to a 0.14% difference in weight. In a
20-oz tank of fuel, I can't think that will make a noticeable
difference in overall aircraft weight or balance. So, doing all
thehigher math -- actually, since the fuel is going to fly, we must get
into computational fluid dynamics! ;-{) -- I calculate that 20 oz of
25% fuel weighs 0.96 oz more than a 20oz tank of 14% nitro. If my
calcs are correct, that is hardly anything to write home about!!!<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Phil Spelt, KCRC President
AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member
SPA 177 Board Member
(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c</pre>
<br>
On 12/7/2012 8:17 PM, Dave Burton wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:00f501cdd4e1$d7ccdd70$87669850$@net" type="cite">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.msonormal, li.msonormal, div.msonormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#cc0000;}
a:link, span.msohyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.msohyperlinkfollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:#cc0000;}
p.msoacetate, li.msoacetate, div.msoacetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:#cc0000;}
span.htmlpreformattedchar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:consolas;
color:#cc0000;}
span.balloontextchar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.emailstyle21
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d;}
span.emailstyle22
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1f497d;}
.msochpdefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page wordsection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.wordsection1
{page:wordsection1;}
--></style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">Actually
it does! nitro is approx 9.4 lbs per gal, methanol is approx 6.7 lbs
per gal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>PhilS.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 07, 2012 7:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Sorry, Verne, more Nitro
doesn't cost us more weight. ;-{)</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Phil Spelt, KCRC President<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SPA 177 Board Member<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
On 12/7/2012 7:15 PM, Verne Koester wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Larry,
20C is 10% nitro, 40C is 40% nitro. Like nitro, more C is more weight
as well in most cases. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
fly Masters with 20C batteries and have my throttle governed back to
make it easier to manage the excess power. I started last season with
25C batteries and had to govern it back even more. Using 40C batteries
would be like sticking a YS 170 on a 110-size plane while probably
putting you over the weight limit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Verne</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;"> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Larry Diamond<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 07, 2012 6:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Interesting point... I
don't understand how changing from 20C to 40C pack makes a difference
using the same Motor and ESC combo. If it's battery heat, my
electronics background would tell me the pack is probably being
dicharged too deep. Not good for the life of a battery.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I suspect the
result of not changing the Motor/ESC and only changing the battery will
reult in a shorter battery life; and, over loading the power plant
which will probably result in damaging the ESC and/or the Motor.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I could be wrong,
cause I really have no experience with electric power set ups in
planes. I just don't understand the logic going from 20C to 40C and the
result being "too hot for intermediate".</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">It wouldn't
surprise me to see Masters or FAI having a higher power set up, like
3,500 to 4,000+ watts. Then depending on the max current draw, 40C may
make sense.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">My set up will be
about 2,700 to 3,000 watts based on specs... It may not be sufficient
for Masters or FAI.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Perhaps this will
turn out to be a good constructive discussion for a number of people
like me, but I'm curious as to other opinions who have practicle
knowledge.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Larry Diamond</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">
Patrick Harris <<a href="mailto:harris7148@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">harris7148@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 7, 2012 2:02 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Going Electric - Battery
Questions</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="yiv1745728499">
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Larry,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">You have received all
good advice. One thing to keep in mind, is you are not going to be able
to fly two full sequences with pretty much any setup. With the Himax in
a Monolog flying Intermediate, 20C's are going to be perfect. With
20C's and good throttle management you are going to be able to fly the
full Intermediate and maybe four or five more maneuvers. If you go up
to 40C, you will find the Himax way to hot for Intermediate, and you
won't add that much flying time. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Another thing about the
Himax is it really needs an aggressive throttle curve on the bottom. If
you just fly it out of the box it will have zip for low end and nuts
for high end all at about mid throttle. On the low end, you will just
keep pushing and pushing and nothing seems to happen until you hit mid
throttle and it will go nuts. The best throttle curve on my Himax looks
like a snake. It ramps up really fast on the low end, tappers off at
mid throttle and then heads back up on the high end, but you need to
work it out for your set up. Trust me, spending a good amount of time
getting this right is going to pay big dividends. If you don't, your
uplines are going to be way too hot.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Hey Larry,<br>
<br>
As everyone is telling you, the BIG difference between what you're
proposing and what you're accustomed to with Glg to below is that
you'll fly 90% of your sequence at half throttle. Not figuratively
half throttle... but literally half, or below. Even a vertical upline
does not need full motor on these setups. Flying intermediate even
less so. Also, at full throttle you'll likely only pull about 75amps,
so even 15C batteries would get the job done, but I would stick with 20
and higher.<br>
<br>
<br>
Mark Atwood<br>
Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President<br>
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124<br>
Phone: </span><span class="MsoHyperlink">440.684.3101 x102</span><span
style="color: black;"> | Fax: </span><span class="MsoHyperlink">440.684.3102</span><span
style="color: black;"><br>
<a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a><mailto:<a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>> | <a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.paragon-inc.com/</a><<a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.paragon-inc.com/</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Dec 7, 2012, at 1:37 PM, Larry Diamond wrote:<br>
<br>
OK, play nice... Never dealt with electrics before... I could be way
off base, but here is a stab at it...<br>
<br>
Is my math flawed?<br>
<br>
Motor - Himax 6330-210 F3A Motor (210KV)<br>
ESC - Phoenix Ice 80HV - New V2 Version<br>
Battery 10s - 37VDC<br>
<br>
Plane - 2M Monolog<br>
<br>
Max power range is about ~2,700 to ~3,000 watts with this set up...<br>
<br>
Calculated Battery Discharge Rate = 80Amps (ESC rating) divided by
3,500mAh (battery capacity) = 22.9C<br>
<br>
Based on this math I suspect that a 30C dicharge rate is good on
paper... additional discharge performane = $$$ and I don't want to
spend money on battery performance I don't need...<br>
<br>
Class - Intermediate<br>
<br>
What is the recommended battery capacity and discharge rate...?<br>
<br>
I understand the many variables associated with the answer like, prop
size, temps, wind, throttle control, yada, yada, yada...<br>
<br>
I would like to fly the Intermediate sequence a couple time without
having to refuel electrons...<br>
<br>
Larry Diamond<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><mailto:<a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p
style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; margin-bottom: 12pt; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal" align="center">
<hr style="color: rgb(172, 168, 153);" noshade="noshade" size="1"
align="center" width="100%"> </div>
<p class="MsoNormal">No virus found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2634/5942 - Release Date:
12/06/12<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<pre wrap=""><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<p>
</p>
<hr>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>