<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Charlie the Falcon V2 props should weigh in less than 50 grams. 72 grams is more like the V1 Falcons.</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"> I should know I have a lot of them!</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"> Mike<VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR></SPAN></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Charlie Barrera <charliebarrera@consolidated.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, December 5, 2012 10:59 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>I was using a APC 20.5 X 12WE prop. I had previously used a Falcon V2 21 X<BR>14. I had flown with the Falcon a couple of times. I used the APC after<BR>noticing the Falcon had delaminated on the leading
edge. The difference in<BR>weight was substantial - the Falcon prop weighed 72g vs. the APC was around<BR>120g (I never weighed it but immediately noticed the difference). The<BR>difference in the rotating mass (the propeller disc) produced greater<BR>rotational forces. If you can imagine a small gyroscope spinning in your<BR>hand, when you move it perpendicular to its rotating axis, you get a force<BR>that is at a right angle to the axis. This is the force that the fuselage<BR>must absorb. When I powered up and increased the roll rate for the turn to<BR>downwind, the structure failed. I had seen several WindS Pro's fly with<BR>Q80's nose mounted with no rear brace. There were no problems that I heard<BR>of. When it failed on me, I had an ahah moment and should have known better.<BR>I have written an article for the K Factor.<BR><BR>Charlie<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of<BR><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-request@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-request@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-request@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:00 PM<BR>To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Subject: NSRCA-discussion Digest, Vol 85, Issue 5<BR><BR>Send NSRCA-discussion mailing list submissions to<BR> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide
Web, visit<BR> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-request@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-request@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-request@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-owner@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-owner@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-owner@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of NSRCA-discussion digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR> 1. Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR> (mike mueller)<BR> 2. 2M Monolog YS
Setup (Larry Diamond)<BR> 3. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR> (PhilS.)<BR> 4. Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR> (Bob Kane)<BR> 5. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR> (mike mueller)<BR> 6. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR> (ehaury)<BR> 7. December Kfactor (Scott McHarg)<BR> 8. Re: December Kfactor (Michael S. Harrison)<BR> 9. Re: December Kfactor (Keith Hoard)<BR> 10. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR> (Bob Kane)<BR> 11. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR> (Chris)<BR> 12. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of
the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR> (Verne Koester)<BR> 13. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR> (Larry Diamond)<BR> 14. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR> (Peter Vogel)<BR> 15. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR> (Chris)<BR> 16. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR> (Verne Koester)<BR> 17. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR> (mike mueller)<BR> 18. Re: Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>
(=?utf-8?B?RGF2ZUwzMjJAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ=?=)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 13:35:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="mailto:1354656920.51525.YahooMailNeo@web39404.mail.mud.yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:1354656920.51525.YahooMailNeo@web39404.mail.mud.yahoo.com">1354656920.51525.YahooMailNeo@web39404.mail.mud.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Say
what?<BR>"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>?I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>?Is it violent warble?<BR>?What prop were you running????<BR>?Mike<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>>; General pattern<BR>discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>The Q80 has a large?diameter?rotating mass, and it brings with it a
large<BR>reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning. ?In<BR>laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw or pitch. ?A<BR>rear brace would help keep this force in check.?<BR><BR>?<BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR>I understand that a rear brace
is a must for this motor.? <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>???
RESUBMITTED<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121204/3a55" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121204/3a55</A><BR>7f03/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:08:23 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Larry Diamond <<A href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" ymailto="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2M Monolog YS Setup<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="mailto:1354658903.98856.YahooMailNeo@web5704.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:1354658903.98856.YahooMailNeo@web5704.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">1354658903.98856.YahooMailNeo@web5704.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<BR><BR>Looking to see if somebody has a 2M Monolog with a YS DZ setup.<BR>?<BR>Please?send me some pics off line if you can?<BR>?<BR>Or your thoughts... :)<BR>?<BR>Larry Diamond<BR><A href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" ymailto="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</A><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 19:52:16 -0500<BR>From: "PhilS." <<A href="mailto:chuenkan@comcast.net"
ymailto="mailto:chuenkan@comcast.net">chuenkan@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>>, General pattern<BR> discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="mailto:50BE9AC0.9050702@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:50BE9AC0.9050702@comcast.net">50BE9AC0.9050702@comcast.net</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<BR><BR>Hmmmm..."...large _/reactionary/_ force..." is that a Tea Party force?? lol<BR><BR>On 12/4/2012 4:35 PM, mike mueller wrote:<BR>> Say what?<BR>> "a large reactionary
force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>> I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>> Is it violent warble?<BR>> What prop were you running????<BR>> Mike<BR>><BR>> *From:* Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> *To:* "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>>; General pattern <BR>> discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the <BR>> Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> The Q80 has a large diameter rotating mass, and it brings
with it a <BR>> large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is <BR>> spinning. In laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction <BR>> in yaw or pitch. A rear brace would help keep this force in check.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Bob Kane<BR>> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> *From:* "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>> *To:* General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the <BR>> Model -
RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor.<BR>><BR>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A> <BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>>><BR>> Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47<BR>> To: <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>><BR>> Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>><BR>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>> RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR>--
<BR>Phil Spelt, KCRC President<BR>AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member<BR>SPA 177 Board Member<BR>(865) 435-1476v, (865) 604-0541c<BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121204/f2dc" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121204/f2dc</A><BR>0c66/attachment.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 4<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 05:07:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model -
RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="mailto:1354712830.61172.YahooMailNeo@web113313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:1354712830.61172.YahooMailNeo@web113313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com">1354712830.61172.YahooMailNeo@web113313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two torque<BR>vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn the prop<BR>and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's mount. If<BR>that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be fine.<BR>But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) ?resulting from<BR>attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. ?Here is a good<BR>youtube video demonstrating the effect . .. . ?<BR><BR><BR><BR><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0"
target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR><BR><BR>?<BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>To: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>Say what?<BR>"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>?I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>?Is it violent warble?<BR>?What prop were you running????<BR>?Mike<BR><BR>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>>; General pattern<BR>discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>The Q80 has a large?diameter?rotating mass, and it brings with it a large<BR>reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning. ?In<BR>laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw or pitch. ?A<BR>rear brace would help keep this force in check.?<BR><BR>?<BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR>From: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR>I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor.? <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:<BR>"Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>Sender: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>???<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/49fe" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/49fe</A><BR>5fbd/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 5<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 06:26:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>To: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>>, General pattern discussion<BR> <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model -
RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="mailto:1354717605.90912.YahooMailNeo@web39405.mail.mud.yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:1354717605.90912.YahooMailNeo@web39405.mail.mud.yahoo.com">1354717605.90912.YahooMailNeo@web39405.mail.mud.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube video's.<BR>Thanks Bob<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>Charlie was spot on with his comment on
torque, but there are two torque<BR>vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn the prop<BR>and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's mount. If<BR>that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be fine.<BR>But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) ?resulting from<BR>attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. ?Here is a good<BR>youtube video demonstrating the effect . .. . ?<BR><BR><BR><BR><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>To: Bob Kane <<A
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>Say what?<BR>"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>?I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>?Is it violent warble?<BR>?What prop were you running????<BR>?Mike<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>>; General pattern<BR>discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>The Q80 has a large?diameter?rotating mass, and it brings with it a large<BR>reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning. ?In<BR>laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw or pitch. ?A<BR>rear brace would help keep this force in check.?<BR><BR>?<BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR>I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor.? <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>??? RESUBMITTED<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/9a8e" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/9a8e</A><BR>9947/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 6<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 10:02:34 -0600<BR>From: "ehaury" <<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: "mike mueller" <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>>, "General pattern<BR> discussion" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID: <387E7BAD4DE944C390623886E20D28F8@EarlPC><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've discussed possibilities -<BR>obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the structure could handle.<BR><BR>Torque & precession have been with us since we stuck engines & props on the<BR>front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much with the advent of E<BR>power - actually went down with the use of lighter props.<BR><BR>I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't change much. The<BR>rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g and rotates up to 7K rpm<BR>with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs around 100g, but
it<BR>rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with the gearbox, can<BR>probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most other popular outrunners<BR>fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made the calcs.)<BR><BR>I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14 is less<BR>powerful). It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear mount. I think<BR>we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's been no<BR>success running inrunners without a rear support. While some have had<BR>success running the Q without a rear support (bet the prop was light), these<BR>things really need a more sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt /<BR>fuse nose) than may be obvious.<BR><BR>Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning curve,<BR>hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will prevent further<BR>occurrences.<BR><BR>Earl<BR> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: mike mueller <BR> To: Bob Kane ; General pattern discussion <BR> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM<BR> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>Model- RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR> Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube<BR>video's. Thanks Bob<BR><BR><BR><BR> From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR> To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR> Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two torque<BR>vectors at work, the first is the obvious force
required to turn the prop<BR>and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's mount. If<BR>that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be fine.<BR>But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) resulting from<BR>attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. Here is a good<BR>youtube video demonstrating the effect . .. . <BR><BR><BR><BR> <A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> Bob Kane<BR> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR> From: mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR> To: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> <BR> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR> Say what?<BR> "a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR> I feel infinitlty smarter<BR> Is it violent warble?<BR> What prop were you running????<BR> Mike<BR><BR><BR> From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR> To: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>>; General pattern<BR>discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR> The Q80 has a large diameter rotating mass, and it brings with it a large<BR>reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning. In<BR>laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw or pitch. A<BR>rear brace would help keep this force in check. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> Bob Kane<BR> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR> From: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR> To: General
pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR> I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor. <BR><BR> Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR><BR> -----Original Message-----<BR> From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR> Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR> To: <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR> Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR> RESUBMITTED<BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR> <A
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Database: 2634/5437 - Release Date: 12/04/12<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/46d2" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/46d2</A><BR>e93e/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 7<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 10:06:37 -0600<BR>From: Scott McHarg <<A href="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com">scmcharg@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] December Kfactor<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <CALDH1Uo8PH-mjtv5RgaATt-T0g6+<A href="mailto:QJtH2eJTniLNiCuM7dnRKg@mail.gmail.com"
ymailto="mailto:QJtH2eJTniLNiCuM7dnRKg@mail.gmail.com">QJtH2eJTniLNiCuM7dnRKg@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>The December issue of our Kfactor is now available for download at<BR>www.nsrca.us. Please remember to click on each ad of our advertisers as<BR>they have the ability to track where the click came from. Each click helps<BR>make sure they know their advertising dollars are working for them. Every<BR>click helps! The links are embedded in the pdf so there's nothing to type.<BR>Just point and click!<BR><BR>For those of you who are getting a weird title when you open the Kfactor on<BR>a tablet, iPad or smartphone, I have figured out what the cause of it is<BR>with the help of Peter Vogel. That shouldn't be the case anymore.<BR><BR>Thank you,<BR><BR>-- <BR>*Scott A. McHarg*<BR>Sr. Systems Engineer - Infrastructure<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML
attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/8e8e" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/8e8e</A><BR>135f/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 8<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 11:06:46 -0600<BR>From: "Michael S. Harrison" <<A href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net" ymailto="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</A>><BR>To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] December Kfactor<BR>Message-ID: <005a01cdd30a$e978e380$bc6aaa80$@net><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>thanks,<BR><BR>you can do me strictly email. I don't really want the paper one.<BR><BR>mike
<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Scott McHarg<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 10:07 AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] December Kfactor<BR><BR><BR><BR>The December issue of our Kfactor is now available for download at<BR>www.nsrca.us. Please remember to click on each ad of our advertisers as<BR>they have the ability to track where the click came from. Each click helps<BR>make sure they know their advertising dollars are working for them. Every<BR>click helps! The links are embedded in the pdf so there's nothing to type.<BR>Just point and
click!<BR><BR><BR><BR>For those of you who are getting a weird title when you open the Kfactor on<BR>a tablet, iPad or smartphone, I have figured out what the cause of it is<BR>with the help of Peter Vogel. That shouldn't be the case anymore.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Thank you,<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Scott A. McHarg<BR>Sr. Systems Engineer - Infrastructure<BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/2249" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/2249</A><BR>7a98/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 9<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 17:17:21 +0000<BR>From: Keith Hoard <<A href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: NSRCA Mailing List <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] December Kfactor<BR>Message-ID: <2928297149156282153@unknownmsgid><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<BR><BR>Me Two!!<BR><BR>Sent from Windows Mail<BR><BR>*From:* Michael S. Harrison<BR>*Sent:* ?December? ?5?, ?2012 ?11?:?06? ?AM<BR>*To:* General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>*Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] December Kfactor<BR><BR><BR>thanks,****<BR><BR>you can do me strictly email. I don't really want the paper one.****<BR><BR>mike ****<BR><BR>** **<BR><BR>*From:* <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<BR><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] *On Behalf Of *Scott McHarg<BR>*Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 10:07 AM<BR>*To:* General pattern discussion<BR>*Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] December Kfactor****<BR><BR>** **<BR><BR>The December issue of our Kfactor is now available for download at<BR>www.nsrca.us. Please remember to click on each ad of our advertisers as<BR>they have the ability to track where the click came from. Each click helps<BR>make sure they know their advertising dollars are working for them. Every<BR>click helps! The links are embedded in the pdf so there's nothing to type.<BR>Just point and click!****<BR><BR>** **<BR><BR>For those of you who are getting a weird title when you open the Kfactor on<BR>a tablet, iPad or smartphone, I have figured out what the cause of it is<BR>with the help of
Peter Vogel. That shouldn't be the case anymore.****<BR><BR>** **<BR><BR>Thank you,<BR>****<BR><BR>** **<BR><BR>-- <BR>*Scott A. McHarg*<BR>Sr. Systems Engineer - Infrastructure****<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/5582" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/5582</A><BR>294b/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 10<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 09:38:22 -0800
(PST)<BR>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="mailto:1354729102.3541.YahooMailNeo@web113313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:1354729102.3541.YahooMailNeo@web113313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com">1354729102.3541.YahooMailNeo@web113313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Great observations. ?I am curious about the numbers myself, maybe in my<BR>spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old physics books and crunch some<BR>numbers.?<BR>?<BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: ehaury <<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>>; General pattern discussion<BR><<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've <BR>discussed possibilities - obviously forces occurred that were beyond what<BR>the <BR>structure could handle.<BR>?<BR>Torque & precession have been with us
since we stuck <BR>engines & props on the front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much <BR>with the advent of E power - actually went down with the use of lighter <BR>props.<BR>?<BR>I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't <BR>change much. The rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g?and <BR>rotates up to 7K rpm with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs <BR>around 100g, but it rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with<BR>the <BR>gearbox, can probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most other<BR>popular <BR>outrunners fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made<BR>the <BR>calcs.)<BR>?<BR>I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the <BR>Q80-14 is less powerful). It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear <BR>mount. I think we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's<BR><BR>been no success running inrunners without a rear support.
While some have<BR>had <BR>success running the Q without a rear support (bet the prop was light), these<BR><BR>things really need a more sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt /<BR>fuse <BR>nose) than may be obvious.<BR>?<BR>Essentially something slightly different that adds to the <BR>learning curve, hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will <BR>prevent further occurrences.<BR>?<BR>Earl<BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>>From: mike mueller <BR>>To: Bob Kane ; General pattern discussion <BR>>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM<BR>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>><BR>>Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube<BR>video's. Thanks Bob<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR>>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>><BR>>Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two torque<BR>vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn the prop<BR>and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's mount. If<BR>that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be<BR>fine. But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) ?resulting from<BR>attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. ?Here is a<BR>good youtube video demonstrating the
effect . .. . ?<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>?<BR>>Bob Kane<BR>><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>><BR>>From: mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>>To: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> <BR>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>><BR>>Say what?<BR>>"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>>?I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>>?Is it
violent warble?<BR>>?What prop were you running????<BR>>?Mike<BR>><BR>><BR>>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>To: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>>; General pattern<BR>discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>><BR>>The Q80 has a large?diameter?rotating mass, and it brings with it a large<BR>reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when
it is spinning. ?In<BR>laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw or pitch. ?A<BR>rear brace would help keep this force in check.?<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>?<BR>>Bob Kane<BR>><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>><BR>>From: "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>>I understand that a rear
brace is a must for <BR> this motor.? <BR>><BR>>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>>Sent via BlackBerry by <BR> AT&T<BR>><BR>>-----Original Message-----<BR>>From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>>Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>Date: <BR> Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>Reply-To: <BR> General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>Subject: <BR>
[NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model <BR> -<BR>>??? <BR> RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>NSRCA-discussion <BR> mailing list<BR>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>NSRCA-discussion <BR> mailing list<BR>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>NSRCA-discussion <BR> mailing list<BR>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>NSRCA-discussion <BR> mailing list<BR>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>>________________________________<BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>>NSRCA-discussion <BR> mailing <BR> list<BR>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> <BR>>________________________________<BR>> <BR>>No virus found in this message.<BR>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>>Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus <BR> Database: 2634/5437 - Release Date: 12/04/12<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/cc6d" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/cc6d</A><BR>f6fe/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 11<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:50:20 -0500<BR>From: Chris <<A href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com" ymailto="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">cjm767driver@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>>, General pattern
discussion<BR> <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="mailto:BLU0-SMTP4777014E8EB96D123EC2E8083460@phx.gbl" ymailto="mailto:BLU0-SMTP4777014E8EB96D123EC2E8083460@phx.gbl">BLU0-SMTP4777014E8EB96D123EC2E8083460@phx.gbl</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<BR><BR>Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard way that <BR>nose mounted outrunners without a rear support would lead to structural <BR>failures with nearly 100% certainty. My nose mounted Genesis lasted 1 <BR>1/2 flights before failure. Others had many more flights but even the <BR>best cases I know of had nose structure stresses and cracking due to the <BR>unsupported
nose mounting. Jerry Budd and I did a lot of testing and <BR>posting about this issue back in 2006 or 2007. Newer designs have <BR>reinforced noses which help but bottom line, don't nose mount an <BR>electric motor without rear support. It "might" last 1 or 500 flights <BR>but 501 won't be as successful.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR>On 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:<BR>> Great observations. I am curious about the numbers myself, maybe in <BR>> my spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old physics books and crunch some <BR>> numbers.<BR>><BR>> Bob Kane<BR>> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>> *From:* ehaury <<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A>><BR>> *To:* mike mueller <<A
href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>>; General pattern <BR>> discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of <BR>> the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've discussed <BR>> possibilities - obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the <BR>> structure could handle.<BR>> Torque & precession have been with us since we stuck engines & props <BR>> on the front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much with the <BR>> advent of E power - actually went down with the use of lighter props.<BR>> I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't
change much. <BR>> The rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g and rotates up to <BR>> 7K rpm with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs around <BR>> 100g, but it rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with <BR>> the gearbox, can probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most <BR>> other popular outrunners fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if <BR>> someone actually made the calcs.)<BR>> I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14 is less <BR>> powerful). It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear mount. I <BR>> think we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's <BR>> been no success running inrunners without a rear support. While some <BR>> have had success running the Q without a rear support (bet the prop <BR>> was light), these things really need a more sturdy rear support (or <BR>> very stout front mnt / fuse nose) than may be
obvious.<BR>> Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning <BR>> curve, hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will <BR>> prevent further occurrences.<BR>> Earl<BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> *From:* mike mueller <mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>> *To:* Bob Kane <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> ; General pattern<BR>> discussion <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the
Nose<BR>> of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching<BR>> Youtube video's. Thanks Bob<BR>><BR>> *From:* Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>>><BR>> *To:* Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR>> *Subject:*
[NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of<BR>> the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two<BR>> torque vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to<BR>> turn the prop and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor<BR>> transmits to it's mount. If that was all we had to worry about,<BR>> the single mount would probably be fine. But there is the other<BR>> torque (gyroscopic precession) resulting from attempting to move<BR>> a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. Here is a good youtube<BR>> video demonstrating the effect . .. .<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR>><BR>> Bob
Kane<BR>> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> *From:* mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>> *To:* Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of<BR>> the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> Say what?<BR>> "a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>> I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>> Is it violent warble?<BR>> What prop were you running????<BR>>
Mike<BR>><BR>> *From:* Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> *To:* "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>>; General<BR>> pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of<BR>> the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> The Q80 has a large diameter rotating mass, and it brings with it<BR>> a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession
when it is<BR>> spinning. In laymen terms it will strongly resist changing<BR>> direction in yaw or pitch. A rear brace would help keep this<BR>> force in check.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Bob Kane<BR>> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> *From:* "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>" <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>> *To:* General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious
Torque on the Nose of<BR>> the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor.<BR>><BR>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>>><BR>> Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47<BR>> To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>><BR>> Reply-To: General pattern discussion<BR>> <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>><BR>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on
the Nose of the Model -<BR>> RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>> No virus found in this message.<BR>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <<A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>http://www.avg.com/</A>><BR>> Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5437 - Release Date:<BR>> 12/04/12<BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/a3c8" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/a3c8</A><BR>1e25/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 12<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:16:26 -0500<BR>From: "Verne Koester" <<A href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID: <000c01cdd314$a43277f0$ec9767d0$@twmi.rr.com><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>I agree with Chris. I've personally had thousands of flights with nose<BR>mounted motors with rear
supports and never had so much as a hint of<BR>failure. If you count all the flights I've seen Andrew fly with his nose<BR>mounted, rear supported motors as well as countless others at the practice<BR>field and on the contest trail, the number probably reaches into the tens of<BR>thousands. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The only time I've ever witnessed a catastrophic motor induced fuselage<BR>failure was while I was judging an FAI pilot flying an Axi-equipped Smaragd<BR>a few years back. Following a turnaround, there was a short, deep, rumbling<BR>sound that sounded a little like flutter with heavy bass followed by the<BR>departure of the motor and a significant section of the nose of the fuse.<BR>The motor was nose mounted and had no rear support. <BR><BR><BR><BR>My best guess, and it is just a guess, was that the prop arc coupled with<BR>the forces of the looping turnaround, set up a harmonic, or flutter if you<BR>will, that the fuse couldn't contain. The
rumble was very brief before it<BR>came apart. <BR><BR><BR><BR>I have no engineering data to report, just practical experience. A nose<BR>mounted motor without a rear support is a disaster about to happen. As Chris<BR>said, it's just a matter of when.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Verne Koester<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Chris<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:50 PM<BR>To: Bob Kane; General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard way that<BR>nose mounted outrunners without a
rear support would lead to structural<BR>failures with nearly 100% certainty. My nose mounted Genesis lasted 1 1/2<BR>flights before failure. Others had many more flights but even the best<BR>cases I know of had nose structure stresses and cracking due to the<BR>unsupported nose mounting. Jerry Budd and I did a lot of testing and<BR>posting about this issue back in 2006 or 2007. Newer designs have<BR>reinforced noses which help but bottom line, don't nose mount an electric<BR>motor without rear support. It "might" last 1 or 500 flights but 501 won't<BR>be as successful.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR>On 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:<BR><BR>Great observations. I am curious about the numbers myself, maybe in my<BR>spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old physics books and crunch some numbers.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR><BR> _____ <BR><BR><BR>From: ehaury <mailto:<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A>> <<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: mike mueller <mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR><<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>>; General pattern discussion<BR><mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR><BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've discussed possibilities -<BR>obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the structure could handle.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Torque & precession have been with us since we stuck engines & props on the<BR>front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much with the advent of E<BR>power - actually went down with the use of lighter props.<BR><BR><BR><BR>I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't change much. The<BR>rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g and rotates up to 7K rpm<BR>with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs around 100g, but it<BR>rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with the gearbox,
can<BR>probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most other popular outrunners<BR>fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made the calcs.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14 is less<BR>powerful). It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear mount. I think<BR>we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's been no<BR>success running inrunners without a rear support. While some have had<BR>success running the Q without a rear support (bet the prop was light), these<BR>things really need a more sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt /<BR>fuse nose) than may be obvious.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning curve,<BR>hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will prevent further<BR>occurrences.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Earl<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR><BR>From: mike mueller <mailto:<A
href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>> <BR><BR>To: Bob Kane <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> ; General pattern discussion<BR><mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR><BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM<BR><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube video's.<BR>Thanks Bob<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two torque<BR>vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn the prop<BR>and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's mount. If<BR>that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be fine.<BR>But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) resulting from<BR>attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. Here is a good<BR>youtube video demonstrating the effect . .. . <BR><BR><BR><BR><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR>From: mike mueller <mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR><<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>To: Bob Kane <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>Say what?<BR><BR>"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR><BR>I feel infinitlty smarter<BR><BR>Is it violent warble?<BR><BR>What prop
were you running????<BR><BR>Mike<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Bob Kane <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: <mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>> "<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>"<BR><mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>> <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>>; General pattern<BR>discussion <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR><<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>The Q80 has a large diameter rotating mass, and it brings with it a large<BR>reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning. In<BR>laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw or pitch. A<BR>rear brace would help keep this force in check. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR>From: <mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>> "<A
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>"<BR><mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>> <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR><<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>Sent via BlackBerry by
AT&T<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR> RESUBMITTED<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR> _____ <BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> <BR><BR> _____ <BR><BR>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
<<A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>http://www.avg.com/</A>> <BR>Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5437 - Release Date: 12/04/12<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>-------------- next part
--------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/c255" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/c255</A><BR>ef73/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 13<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 11:30:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Larry Diamond <<A href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" ymailto="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="mailto:1354735810.46115.YahooMailNeo@web5715.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:1354735810.46115.YahooMailNeo@web5715.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">1354735810.46115.YahooMailNeo@web5715.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<BR><BR>As somebody who is trying to get back into Pattern and those like me that<BR>have Zero experience with high power electric setups, is there an article or<BR>a something posted that we can reference?<BR>?<BR>Maybe something on the NSRCA Website that can be accessed by all under Tips<BR>an Set Up...Yada Yada Yada...<BR>?<BR>Larry Diamond<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: Verne Koester <<A href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>To: 'General pattern discussion' <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:16 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>I agree with Chris. I?ve personally had thousands of flights with nose<BR>mounted motors with rear supports and never had so much as a hint of<BR>failure. If you count all the flights I?ve seen Andrew fly with his nose<BR>mounted, rear supported motors as well as countless others at the practice<BR>field and on the contest trail, the number probably reaches into the tens of<BR>thousands. <BR>?<BR>The only time I?ve ever witnessed a catastrophic motor induced fuselage<BR>failure was while I was judging an FAI pilot flying an Axi-equipped Smaragd<BR>a few years back. Following a turnaround, there was a short, deep, rumbling<BR>sound that sounded a little like flutter with heavy bass followed by the<BR>departure of the motor and a significant section of the nose of the fuse.<BR>The motor was nose mounted and had no rear support. <BR>?<BR>My best guess, and it is just a guess, ?was that
the prop arc coupled with<BR>the forces of the looping turnaround, set up a harmonic, or flutter if you<BR>will, that the fuse couldn?t contain. The rumble was very brief before it<BR>came apart. <BR>?<BR>I have no engineering data to report, just practical experience. A nose<BR>mounted motor without a rear support is a disaster about to happen. As Chris<BR>said, it?s just a matter of when.<BR>?<BR>Verne Koester<BR>?<BR>From:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Chris<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:50 PM<BR>To: Bob Kane; General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the
Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>?<BR>Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard way that<BR>nose mounted outrunners without a rear support would lead to structural<BR>failures with nearly 100% certainty.? My nose mounted Genesis lasted 1 1/2<BR>flights before failure.? Others had many more flights but even the best<BR>cases I know of had nose structure stresses and cracking due to the<BR>unsupported nose mounting.? Jerry Budd and I did a lot of testing and<BR>posting about this issue back in 2006 or 2007.? Newer designs have<BR>reinforced noses which help but bottom line, don't nose mount an electric<BR>motor without rear support. It "might" last 1 or 500 flights but 501 won't<BR>be as successful.<BR><BR>Chris<BR>On 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:<BR>Great observations. ?I am curious about the numbers myself, maybe in my<BR>spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old physics books and crunch some<BR>numbers.?<BR>>?<BR>>Bob
Kane<BR>><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>><BR>>________________________________<BR>><BR>>From:ehaury mailto:<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A><BR>>To: mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>; General pattern<BR>discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>>?<BR>>I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've discussed possibilities -<BR>obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the structure could
handle.<BR>>?<BR>>Torque & precession have been with us since we stuck engines & props on the<BR>front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much with the advent of E<BR>power - actually went down with the use of lighter props.<BR>>?<BR>>I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't change much. The<BR>rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g?and rotates up to 7K rpm<BR>with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs around 100g, but it<BR>rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with the gearbox, can<BR>probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most other popular outrunners<BR>fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made the calcs.)<BR>>?<BR>>I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14 is less<BR>powerful). It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear mount. I think<BR>we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's been
no<BR>success running inrunners without a rear support. While some have had<BR>success running the Q without a rear support (bet the prop was light), these<BR>things really need a more sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt /<BR>fuse nose) than may be obvious.<BR>>?<BR>>Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning curve,<BR>hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will prevent further<BR>occurrences.<BR>>?<BR>>Earl<BR>>----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>From:mike mueller <BR>>>To:Bob Kane ; General pattern discussion <BR>>>Sent:Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM<BR>>>Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>>>?<BR>>>Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube<BR>video's. Thanks Bob<BR>>>?<BR>>>From:Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>>To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>>>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR>>>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>>>?<BR>>>Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two torque<BR>vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn the prop<BR>and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's mount. If<BR>that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be fine.<BR>But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) ?resulting from<BR>attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. ?Here is a good<BR>youtube video demonstrating the effect . .. .
?<BR>>>?<BR>>><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR>>>?<BR>>>?<BR>>>Bob Kane<BR>>><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>>>From:mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A><BR>>>To: Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <BR>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>>>?<BR>>>Say what?<BR>>>"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>>>?I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>>>?Is it violent warble?<BR>>>?What prop were you
running????<BR>>>?Mike<BR>>>?<BR>>>From:Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>>>To: mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>; General<BR>pattern discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>>>?<BR>>>The Q80 has a large?diameter?rotating mass, and it brings with it a large<BR>reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning. ?In<BR>laymen terms it will strongly resist changing
direction in yaw or pitch. ?A<BR>rear brace would help keep this force in check.?<BR>>>?<BR>>><BR>>>?<BR>>>Bob Kane<BR>>><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>>>From:mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A><BR>>>To: General pattern discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>>><BR>>>I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor.? <BR>>><BR>>>Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR>>>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR>>><BR>>>-----Original Message-----<BR>>>From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>>>Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>>>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>>Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>>>???
RESUBMITTED<BR>>><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing
list<BR>>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>>?<BR>>>?<BR>>><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>><BR>>>________________________________<BR>>><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> <BR>>><BR>>>________________________________<BR>>><BR>>>No virus found in this message.<BR>>>Checked by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>http://www.avg.com/</A><BR>>>Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5437 - Release Date: 12/04/12<BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>?<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/262b" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/262b</A><BR>7ae7/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 14<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:04:26 -0800<BR>From: Peter Vogel <<A href="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com">vogel.peter@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: Larry Diamond <<A href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" ymailto="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</A>>, General pattern<BR> discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID:<BR>
<CAGBB6kKdcMhZOW39R8B7yQB8T=gOTNV+<A href="mailto:axnvtFuZOmnpDSFR2g@mail.gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:axnvtFuZOmnpDSFR2g@mail.gmail.com">axnvtFuZOmnpDSFR2g@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<BR><BR>This would be an *excellent* topic for an article in the K-factor!<BR><BR>(hint, hint)<BR><BR>Peter+<BR><BR><BR>On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Larry Diamond<BR><<A href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" ymailto="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</A>>wrote:<BR><BR>> As somebody who is trying to get back into Pattern and those like me that<BR>> have Zero experience with high power electric setups, is there an article<BR>> or a something posted that we can reference?<BR>><BR>> Maybe something on the NSRCA Website that can be accessed by all under<BR>> Tips an Set Up...Yada Yada Yada...<BR>><BR>> Larry Diamond<BR>><BR>> *From:* Verne Koester <<A
href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>><BR>> *To:* 'General pattern discussion' <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:16 PM<BR>><BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> I agree with Chris. I?ve personally had thousands of flights with nose<BR>> mounted motors with rear supports and never had so much as a hint of<BR>> failure. If you count all the flights I?ve seen Andrew fly with his nose<BR>> mounted, rear supported motors as well as countless others at the practice<BR>> field and on the contest trail, the number probably reaches into the tens<BR>> of thousands.<BR>><BR>> The only time I?ve ever witnessed a catastrophic motor
induced fuselage<BR>> failure was while I was judging an FAI pilot flying an Axi-equipped<BR>Smaragd<BR>> a few years back. Following a turnaround, there was a short, deep,<BR>rumbling<BR>> sound that sounded a little like flutter with heavy bass followed by the<BR>> departure of the motor and a significant section of the nose of the fuse.<BR>> The motor was nose mounted and had no rear support.<BR>><BR>> My best guess, and it is just a guess, was that the prop arc coupled with<BR>> the forces of the looping turnaround, set up a harmonic, or flutter if you<BR>> will, that the fuse couldn?t contain. The rumble was very brief before it<BR>> came apart.<BR>><BR>> I have no engineering data to report, just practical experience. A nose<BR>> mounted motor without a rear support is a disaster about to happen. As<BR>> Chris said, it?s just a matter of when.<BR>><BR>> Verne Koester<BR>><BR>>
*From:* <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<BR>> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] *On Behalf Of *Chris<BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:50 PM<BR>> *To:* Bob Kane; General pattern discussion<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard way that<BR>> nose mounted outrunners without a rear support would lead to structural<BR>> failures with nearly 100% certainty. My nose mounted Genesis lasted 1 1/2<BR>> flights before failure. Others had many more flights but even the best<BR>> cases I know of had nose structure
stresses and cracking due to the<BR>> unsupported nose mounting. Jerry Budd and I did a lot of testing and<BR>> posting about this issue back in 2006 or 2007. Newer designs have<BR>> reinforced noses which help but bottom line, don't nose mount an electric<BR>> motor without rear support. It "might" last 1 or 500 flights but 501 won't<BR>> be as successful.<BR>><BR>> Chris<BR>> On 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:<BR>><BR>> Great observations. I am curious about the numbers myself, maybe in my<BR>> spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old physics books and crunch some<BR>> numbers.<BR>><BR>> Bob Kane<BR>> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> *From:* ehaury mailto:<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A> <<A
href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A>><BR>> *To:* mike mueller<BR>mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A><<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>>;<BR>> General pattern discussion<BR>mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've
discussed<BR>> possibilities - obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the<BR>> structure could handle.<BR>><BR>> Torque & precession have been with us since we stuck engines & props on<BR>> the front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much with the advent<BR>of<BR>> E power - actually went down with the use of lighter props.<BR>><BR>> I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't change much.<BR>> The rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g and rotates up to 7K<BR>> rpm with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs around 100g, but<BR>> it rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with the gearbox,<BR>> can probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most other popular<BR>> outrunners fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made<BR>> the calcs.)<BR>><BR>> I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue
(the Q80-14 is less<BR>> powerful). It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear mount. I<BR>think<BR>> we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's been no<BR>> success running inrunners without a rear support. While some have had<BR>> success running the Q without a rear support (bet the prop was light),<BR>> these things really need a more sturdy rear support (or very stout front<BR>> mnt / fuse nose) than may be obvious.<BR>><BR>> Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning<BR>> curve, hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will prevent<BR>> further occurrences.<BR>><BR>> Earl<BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> *From:* mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>> *To:* Bob Kane <<A
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> ; General pattern<BR>discussion<<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube<BR>> video's. Thanks Bob<BR>><BR>> *From:* Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> *To:* Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR>>
*Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model<BR>> - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two<BR>> torque vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn<BR>the<BR>> prop and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's<BR>mount.<BR>> If that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be<BR>> fine. But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) resulting<BR>from<BR>> attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. Here is a<BR>> good youtube video demonstrating the effect . .. .<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR>><BR>><BR>> Bob Kane<BR>> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> *From:* mike mueller<BR>mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A><<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>> *To:* Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model<BR>> - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> Say what?<BR>> "a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>> I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>> Is it violent warble?<BR>> What
prop were you running????<BR>> Mike<BR>><BR>> *From:* Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> *To:* mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>>; General pattern<BR>> discussion<BR>mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model<BR>> - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> The Q80 has a large diameter rotating mass, and it brings with it a<BR>> large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning.<BR>> In laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw or<BR>> pitch. A rear brace would help keep this force in check.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Bob Kane<BR>> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> *From:* mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net"
ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> <<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>><BR>> *To:* General pattern discussion<BR>mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model<BR>> - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor.<BR>><BR>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR>><BR>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>> From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>> Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47<BR>> To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>> RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> No
virus found in this message.<BR>> Checked by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>http://www.avg.com/</A><BR>><BR>> Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5437 - Release Date: 12/04/12<BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>><BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>><BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><BR>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training<BR>Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/9234" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/9234</A><BR>69d4/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 15<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 15:04:30 -0500<BR>From: Chris <<A href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com" ymailto="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">cjm767driver@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To: Larry Diamond <<A href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" ymailto="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</A>>, General pattern<BR> discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="mailto:BLU0-SMTP689E212EB4AE9E54443DC583460@phx.gbl" ymailto="mailto:BLU0-SMTP689E212EB4AE9E54443DC583460@phx.gbl">BLU0-SMTP689E212EB4AE9E54443DC583460@phx.gbl</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<BR><BR>Larry,<BR><BR>A rear mounted outrunner (on a firewall) or a nose mounted outrunner or <BR>inrunner with rear support are all safe ways to go. Find your budget and <BR>get suggestions of combos that are currently ( that's funny) in use and <BR>are successful and copy the working setup EXACTLY. 99.99% of problems <BR>from new electric guys are when they start experimenting or want to try <BR>something different - don't. Just copy what
works and you will have <BR>success, and please don't rely on the many faceless experts on RCU etc. <BR>Guys on this thread like Earl and Verne and Mike have tons of experience <BR>and can lead you to a working setup from day 1.<BR><BR>Electric is not that difficult at all but you need to learn a new <BR>language and that takes a while so rely on any good teacher here on the <BR>list.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR><BR>On 12/5/2012 2:30 PM, Larry Diamond wrote:<BR>> As somebody who is trying to get back into Pattern and those like me <BR>> that have Zero experience with high power electric setups, is there an <BR>> article or a something posted that we can reference?<BR>> Maybe something on the NSRCA Website that can be accessed by all under <BR>> Tips an Set Up...Yada Yada Yada...<BR>> Larry Diamond<BR>><BR>> *From:* Verne Koester <<A href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com"
ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>> *To:* 'General pattern discussion' <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:16 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of <BR>> the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> I agree with Chris. I've personally had thousands of flights with nose <BR>> mounted motors with rear supports and never had so much as a hint of <BR>> failure. If you count all the flights I've seen Andrew fly with his <BR>> nose mounted, rear supported motors as well as countless others at the <BR>> practice field and on the contest trail, the number probably reaches <BR>> into the tens of thousands.<BR>> The only time I've ever witnessed a catastrophic motor induced <BR>> fuselage failure was while I was judging
an FAI pilot flying an <BR>> Axi-equipped Smaragd a few years back. Following a turnaround, there <BR>> was a short, deep, rumbling sound that sounded a little like flutter <BR>> with heavy bass followed by the departure of the motor and a <BR>> significant section of the nose of the fuse. The motor was nose <BR>> mounted and had no rear support.<BR>> My best guess, and it is just a guess, was that the prop arc coupled <BR>> with the forces of the looping turnaround, set up a harmonic, or <BR>> flutter if you will, that the fuse couldn't contain. The rumble was <BR>> very brief before it came apart.<BR>> I have no engineering data to report, just practical experience. A <BR>> nose mounted motor without a rear support is a disaster about to <BR>> happen. As Chris said, it's just a matter of when.<BR>> Verne Koester<BR>> *From:*<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>> [mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] *On Behalf Of *Chris<BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:50 PM<BR>> *To:* Bob Kane; General pattern discussion<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of <BR>> the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>> Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard way <BR>> that nose mounted outrunners without a rear support would lead to <BR>> structural failures with nearly 100% certainty. My nose mounted <BR>> Genesis lasted 1 1/2 flights before failure. Others had many more <BR>> flights but even the best cases I know of had nose structure stresses <BR>> and cracking due to the unsupported nose
mounting. Jerry Budd and I <BR>> did a lot of testing and posting about this issue back in 2006 or <BR>> 2007. Newer designs have reinforced noses which help but bottom line, <BR>> don't nose mount an electric motor without rear support. It "might" <BR>> last 1 or 500 flights but 501 won't be as successful.<BR>><BR>> Chris<BR>> On 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:<BR>><BR>> Great observations. I am curious about the numbers myself, maybe<BR>> in my spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old physics books and<BR>> crunch some numbers.<BR>> Bob Kane<BR>> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> *From:*ehaury mailto:<A
href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A><BR>> *To:* mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>; General<BR>> pattern discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose<BR>> of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>> I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've discussed<BR>> possibilities - obviously forces occurred that were beyond what<BR>> the structure could handle.<BR>> Torque & precession have been with us since we stuck engines
&<BR>> props on the front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much<BR>> with the advent of E power - actually went down with the use of<BR>> lighter props.<BR>> I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't change<BR>> much. The rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g and<BR>> rotates up to 7K rpm with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50<BR>> also weighs around 100g, but it rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8"<BR>> radius. The latter, with the gearbox, can probably apply torque<BR>> quicker than the outie. Most other popular outrunners fall<BR>> somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made the calcs.)<BR>> I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14 is<BR>> less powerful). It is firmly front mounted with
also a solid rear<BR>> mount. I think we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS<BR>> and there's been no success running inrunners without a rear<BR>> support. While some have had success running the Q without a rear<BR>> support (bet the prop was light), these things really need a more<BR>> sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt / fuse nose) than may<BR>> be obvious.<BR>> Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning<BR>> curve, hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will<BR>> prevent further occurrences.<BR>> Earl<BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> *From:*mike mueller <mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com"
ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>> *To:*Bob Kane <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> ; General pattern<BR>> discussion <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> *Sent:*Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM<BR>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the<BR>> Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>> Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching<BR>> Youtube video's. Thanks Bob<BR>> *From:*Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>>><BR>> *To:* Generalpatterndiscussion<BR>> <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>><BR>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose<BR>> of the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>> Charlie was spot on with his comment on
torque, but there are<BR>> two torque vectors at work, the first is the obvious force<BR>> required to turn the prop and the "equal but opposite" torque<BR>> the motor transmits to it's mount. If that was all we had to<BR>> worry about, the single mount would probably be fine. But<BR>> there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) resulting<BR>> from attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw<BR>> axis. Here is a good youtube video demonstrating the effect .<BR>> .. .<BR>> <A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR>> Bob Kane<BR>>
<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> *From:*mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A><BR>> *To:* Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose<BR>> of the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>> Say what?<BR>> "a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>>
I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>> Is it violent warble?<BR>> What prop were you running????<BR>> Mike<BR>> *From:*Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> *To:* mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A><BR>> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>; General pattern discussion<BR>> mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December
4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose<BR>> of the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>> The Q80 has a large diameter rotating mass, and it brings with<BR>> it a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when<BR>> it is spinning. In laymen terms it will strongly resist<BR>> changing direction in yaw or pitch. A rear brace would help<BR>> keep this force in check.<BR>><BR>> Bob Kane<BR>> <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>
*From:*mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A><BR>> *To:* General pattern discussion<BR>> mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose<BR>> of the Model - RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor.<BR>><BR>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>> Sent via BlackBerry by
AT&T<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>>><BR>> Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47<BR>>
To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>><BR>> Reply-To: General pattern discussion<BR>> <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>><BR>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>> Model -<BR>>
RESUBMITTED<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>> No virus found in this message.<BR>> Checked by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>http://www.avg.com/</A><BR>>
Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5437 - Release<BR>> Date: 12/04/12<BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>><BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>><BR>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <mailto:<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/b3ee" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/b3ee</A><BR>7726/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 16<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 15:05:34 -0500<BR>From: "Verne Koester" <<A href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com"
ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>To: "'Larry Diamond'" <<A href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" ymailto="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</A>>, "'General pattern<BR> discussion'" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID: <000601cdd323$e29c42a0$a7d4c7e0$@twmi.rr.com><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<BR><BR>Larry,<BR><BR>I think what must of us have done is to copy what was successful for someone<BR>else. There are lots of build articles on RC Universe in the pattern and<BR>electric pattern forums. Pick a plane, pick a motor, or some combination of<BR>the two and read. To my knowledge, there?s no
single source point of<BR>information. Once you?ve narrowed down your choice, inquire right here and<BR>I?m sure you?ll get all the info you want or need.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Verne<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Larry Diamond<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 2:30 PM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>As somebody who is trying to get back into Pattern and those like me that<BR>have Zero experience with high power electric setups, is there an article or<BR>a something posted that we can reference?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Maybe
something on the NSRCA Website that can be accessed by all under Tips<BR>an Set Up...Yada Yada Yada...<BR><BR><BR><BR>Larry Diamond<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Verne Koester <<A href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>To: 'General pattern discussion' <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:16 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>I agree with Chris. I?ve personally had thousands of flights with nose<BR>mounted motors with rear supports and never had so much as a hint of<BR>failure. If you count all the flights I?ve seen Andrew fly with his nose<BR>mounted, rear supported motors as well as countless others at the practice<BR>field and on the contest trail, the number probably reaches
into the tens of<BR>thousands. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The only time I?ve ever witnessed a catastrophic motor induced fuselage<BR>failure was while I was judging an FAI pilot flying an Axi-equipped Smaragd<BR>a few years back. Following a turnaround, there was a short, deep, rumbling<BR>sound that sounded a little like flutter with heavy bass followed by the<BR>departure of the motor and a significant section of the nose of the fuse.<BR>The motor was nose mounted and had no rear support. <BR><BR><BR><BR>My best guess, and it is just a guess, was that the prop arc coupled with<BR>the forces of the looping turnaround, set up a harmonic, or flutter if you<BR>will, that the fuse couldn?t contain. The rumble was very brief before it<BR>came apart. <BR><BR><BR><BR>I have no engineering data to report, just practical experience. A nose<BR>mounted motor without a rear support is a disaster about to happen. As Chris<BR>said, it?s just a matter of
when.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Verne Koester<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Chris<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:50 PM<BR>To: Bob Kane; General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard way that<BR>nose mounted outrunners without a rear support would lead to structural<BR>failures with nearly 100% certainty. My nose mounted Genesis lasted 1 1/2<BR>flights before failure. Others had many more flights but even the best<BR>cases I know of had nose structure stresses
and cracking due to the<BR>unsupported nose mounting. Jerry Budd and I did a lot of testing and<BR>posting about this issue back in 2006 or 2007. Newer designs have<BR>reinforced noses which help but bottom line, don't nose mount an electric<BR>motor without rear support. It "might" last 1 or 500 flights but 501 won't<BR>be as successful.<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR>On 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:<BR><BR>Great observations. I am curious about the numbers myself, maybe in my<BR>spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old physics books and crunch some numbers.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR>From: ehaury mailto:<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A><BR>To: mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com"
ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>; General pattern<BR>discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've discussed possibilities -<BR>obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the structure could handle.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Torque & precession have been with us since we stuck engines & props on the<BR>front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much with the advent of E<BR>power - actually went down with the use of lighter props.<BR><BR><BR><BR>I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't change much. The<BR>rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g and rotates up to 7K
rpm<BR>with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs around 100g, but it<BR>rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with the gearbox, can<BR>probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most other popular outrunners<BR>fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made the calcs.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14 is less<BR>powerful). It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear mount. I think<BR>we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's been no<BR>success running inrunners without a rear support. While some have had<BR>success running the Q without a rear support (bet the prop was light), these<BR>things really need a more sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt /<BR>fuse nose) than may be obvious.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning curve,<BR>hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will
prevent further<BR>occurrences.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Earl<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR><BR>From: mike mueller <mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>> <BR><BR>To: Bob Kane <mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>> ; General pattern discussion<BR><mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR><BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM<BR><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube video's.<BR>Thanks Bob<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two torque<BR>vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn the prop<BR>and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's mount. If<BR>that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be fine.<BR>But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) resulting from<BR>attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. Here is a good<BR>youtube video demonstrating the effect . .. . <BR><BR><BR><BR><A
href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR>From: mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A><BR>To: Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>Say what?<BR><BR>"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR><BR>I feel infinitlty smarter<BR><BR>Is it violent warble?<BR><BR>What prop were you running????<BR><BR>Mike<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>To: mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>; General<BR>pattern discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR><BR>The Q80 has a large diameter rotating mass, and it brings with it a large<BR>reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning. In<BR>laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw or pitch. A<BR>rear brace would help keep this force in check. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR><A
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR>From: mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A><BR>To: General pattern discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net"
ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR> RESUBMITTED<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
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target=_blank>http://www.avg.com/</A><BR>Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5437 - Release Date: 12/04/12<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/a2dd" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/a2dd</A><BR>fbaf/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 17<BR>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:17:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: mike mueller <<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>><BR>To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="mailto:1354738620.55213.YahooMailNeo@web39404.mail.mud.yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:1354738620.55213.YahooMailNeo@web39404.mail.mud.yahoo.com">1354738620.55213.YahooMailNeo@web39404.mail.mud.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<BR><BR>There's an old thread on RCU starting on page 37 that discusses this in<BR>length<BR><A href="http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hayqb9Q6XkA85dXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MjF1cTg" target=_blank>http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hayqb9Q6XkA85dXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MjF1cTg</A><BR>5BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1NNRTE0NV8yMTU-/SIG=12i3ovjq4/EXP=1354<BR>766898/**http%3a//www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5004679/mpage_38/key_/tm.htm<BR>?<BR>I
think it's a violent warble much like a shimmy in a loose?front tire when<BR>you hit a certain speed (been there done that a long time ago in a 56 Ford<BR>station wagon)?or a flutter in an aileron. Once the harmonic is set into<BR>action it's steps up in intensity exponentially.<BR>?I've thought in the past that thin floopy long props contribute to the<BR>problem because they can go into a dynamic inbalance.. I think stiff props<BR>work better.<BR>?But if you read the thread the smart people shot me down. <BR>?Bottom line...... support the rear of a front mount.<BR>?M?<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR>From: Verne Koester <<A href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>To: 'Larry Diamond' <<A href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" ymailto="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</A>>; 'General pattern discussion'<BR><<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 2:05 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR><BR><BR>Larry,<BR>I think what must of us have done is to copy what was successful for someone<BR>else. There are lots of build articles on RC Universe in the pattern and<BR>electric pattern forums. Pick a plane, pick a motor, or some combination of<BR>the two and read. To my knowledge, there?s no single source point of<BR>information. Once you?ve narrowed down your choice, inquire right here and<BR>I?m sure you?ll get all the info you want or need.<BR>?<BR>Verne<BR>?<BR>From:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Larry Diamond<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 2:30 PM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>?<BR>As somebody who is trying to get back into Pattern and those like me that<BR>have Zero experience with high power electric setups, is there an article or<BR>a something posted that we can reference?<BR>?<BR>Maybe something on the NSRCA Website that can be accessed by all under Tips<BR>an Set Up...Yada Yada Yada...<BR>?<BR>Larry Diamond<BR>?<BR>From:Verne Koester <<A href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>To: 'General pattern discussion' <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:16 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>?<BR>I agree with Chris. I?ve personally had thousands of flights with nose<BR>mounted motors with rear supports and never had so much as a hint of<BR>failure. If you count all the flights I?ve seen Andrew fly with his nose<BR>mounted, rear supported motors as well as countless others at the practice<BR>field and on the contest trail, the number probably reaches into the tens of<BR>thousands. <BR>?<BR>The only time I?ve ever witnessed a catastrophic motor induced fuselage<BR>failure was while I was judging an FAI pilot flying an Axi-equipped Smaragd<BR>a few years back. Following a turnaround, there was a short, deep, rumbling<BR>sound that sounded a little like flutter with heavy bass followed by the<BR>departure of the motor and a significant section of the nose of the fuse.<BR>The motor was nose mounted and
had no rear support. <BR>?<BR>My best guess, and it is just a guess, ?was that the prop arc coupled with<BR>the forces of the looping turnaround, set up a harmonic, or flutter if you<BR>will, that the fuse couldn?t contain. The rumble was very brief before it<BR>came apart. <BR>?<BR>I have no engineering data to report, just practical experience. A nose<BR>mounted motor without a rear support is a disaster about to happen. As Chris<BR>said, it?s just a matter of when.<BR>?<BR>Verne Koester<BR>?<BR>From:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Chris<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:50 PM<BR>To: Bob Kane; General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>?<BR>Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard way that<BR>nose mounted outrunners without a rear support would lead to structural<BR>failures with nearly 100% certainty.? My nose mounted Genesis lasted 1 1/2<BR>flights before failure.? Others had many more flights but even the best<BR>cases I know of had nose structure stresses and cracking due to the<BR>unsupported nose mounting.? Jerry Budd and I did a lot of testing and<BR>posting about this issue back in 2006 or 2007.? Newer designs have<BR>reinforced noses which help but bottom line, don't nose mount an electric<BR>motor without rear support. It "might" last 1 or 500 flights but 501 won't<BR>be as successful.<BR><BR>Chris<BR>On 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:<BR>Great observations. ?I am curious about the numbers myself, maybe in my<BR>spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old physics books and
crunch some<BR>numbers.?<BR>>?<BR>>Bob Kane<BR>><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>>From:ehaury mailto:<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A><BR>>To: mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>; General pattern<BR>discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>>?<BR>>I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've discussed possibilities -<BR>obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the structure could handle.<BR>>?<BR>>Torque &
precession have been with us since we stuck engines & props on the<BR>front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much with the advent of E<BR>power - actually went down with the use of lighter props.<BR>>?<BR>>I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't change much. The<BR>rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g?and rotates up to 7K rpm<BR>with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs around 100g, but it<BR>rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with the gearbox, can<BR>probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most other popular outrunners<BR>fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made the calcs.)<BR>>?<BR>>I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14 is less<BR>powerful). It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear mount. I think<BR>we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's been no<BR>success running inrunners without a
rear support. While some have had<BR>success running the Q without a rear support (bet the prop was light), these<BR>things really need a more sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt /<BR>fuse nose) than may be obvious.<BR>>?<BR>>Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning curve,<BR>hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will prevent further<BR>occurrences.<BR>>?<BR>>Earl<BR>>----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>From:mike mueller <BR>>>To:Bob Kane ; General pattern discussion <BR>>>Sent:Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM<BR>>>Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>>>?<BR>>>Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube<BR>video's. Thanks Bob<BR>>>?<BR>>>From:Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>>To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>>>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR>>>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>>>?<BR>>>Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two torque<BR>vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn the prop<BR>and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's mount. If<BR>that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be fine.<BR>But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) ?resulting from<BR>attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. ?Here is a good<BR>youtube video demonstrating the effect . .. .
?<BR>>>?<BR>>><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A><BR>>>?<BR>>>?<BR>>>Bob Kane<BR>>><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>>>From:mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A><BR>>>To: Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <BR>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>>>?<BR>>>Say what?<BR>>>"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"<BR>>>?I feel infinitlty smarter<BR>>>?Is it violent warble?<BR>>>?What prop were you
running????<BR>>>?Mike<BR>>>?<BR>>>From:Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>>>To: mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>; General<BR>pattern discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>>>?<BR>>>The Q80 has a large?diameter?rotating mass, and it brings with it a large<BR>reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning. ?In<BR>laymen terms it will strongly resist changing
direction in yaw or pitch. ?A<BR>rear brace would help keep this force in check.?<BR>>>?<BR>>><BR>>>?<BR>>>Bob Kane<BR>>><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>>>From:mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A><BR>>>To: General pattern discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>>><BR>>>I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor.? <BR>>><BR>>>Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR>>>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR>>><BR>>>-----Original Message-----<BR>>>From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>>>Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>>>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>>Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>>>???
RESUBMITTED<BR>>><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>>?<BR>>>?<BR>>><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> <BR>>>No virus found in this message.<BR>>>Checked by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>http://www.avg.com/</A><BR>>>Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5437 - Release Date: 12/04/12<BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR>><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>?<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:<BR><<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/c89a" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20121205/c89a</A><BR>872b/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 18<BR>Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:17:20 -0500<BR>From: "=?utf-8?B?RGF2ZUwzMjJAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ=?="<BR> <<A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A>><BR>To: "=?utf-8?B?R2VuZXJhbCBwYXR0ZXJuIGRpc2N1c3Npb24=?="<BR> <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR> Model- RESUBMITTED<BR>Message-ID: <<A href="mailto:20121205201730.E3304114E0@bridi.netexpress.com" ymailto="mailto:20121205201730.E3304114E0@bridi.netexpress.com">20121205201730.E3304114E0@bridi.netexpress.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<BR><BR>Might I humbly suggest the "project pattern" series ongoing in flying<BR>models. ;)<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR>Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE exclusively from Sprint<BR><BR>----- Reply message -----<BR>From: "Verne Koester" <<A href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>To: "'Larry Diamond'" <<A href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" ymailto="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</A>>, "'General pattern<BR>discussion'" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>Date: Wed, Dec 5, 2012 15:05<BR>Larry,I think what must of us have done is to copy what was successful for<BR>someone else. There are lots of build articles on RC Universe in the pattern<BR>and electric pattern forums. Pick a plane, pick a motor, or some combination<BR>of the two and read. To my knowledge, there?s no single source point of<BR>information. Once you?ve narrowed down your choice, inquire right here and<BR>I?m sure you?ll get all the info you want or need. Verne From:<BR><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Larry Diamond<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 2:30 PM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED As somebody who is trying to get back into Pattern and those<BR>like me that have Zero experience with high power electric setups, is there<BR>an article or a something posted that we can reference? Maybe something on<BR>the NSRCA Website that can be accessed by all under Tips an Set Up...Yada<BR>Yada Yada... Larry Diamond From: Verne Koester <<A href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" ymailto="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com">verne@twmi.rr.com</A>><BR>To: 'General pattern discussion' <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5,
2012 12:16 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED I agree with Chris. I?ve personally had thousands of flights<BR>with nose mounted motors with rear supports and never had so much as a hint<BR>of failure. If you count all the flights I?ve seen Andrew fly with his nose<BR>mounted, rear supported motors as well as countless others at the practice<BR>field and on the contest trail, the number probably reaches into the tens of<BR>thousands. The only time I?ve ever witnessed a catastrophic motor induced<BR>fuselage failure was while I was judging an FAI pilot flying an Axi-equipped<BR>Smaragd a few years back. Following a turnaround, there was a short, deep,<BR>rumbling sound that sounded a little like flutter with heavy bass followed<BR>by the departure of the motor and a significant section of the nose of the<BR>fuse. The motor was nose mounted and had no rear support. My best
guess,<BR>and it is just a guess, was that the prop arc coupled with the forces of<BR>the loopin!<BR>g turnaround, set up a harmonic, or flutter if you will, that the fuse<BR>couldn?t contain. The rumble was very brief before it came apart. I have no<BR>engineering data to report, just practical experience. A nose mounted motor<BR>without a rear support is a disaster about to happen. As Chris said, it?s<BR>just a matter of when. Verne Koester From:<BR><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Chris<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:50 PM<BR>To: Bob Kane; General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious
Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard<BR>way that nose mounted outrunners without a rear support would lead to<BR>structural failures with nearly 100% certainty. My nose mounted Genesis<BR>lasted 1 1/2 flights before failure. Others had many more flights but even<BR>the best cases I know of had nose structure stresses and cracking due to the<BR>unsupported nose mounting. Jerry Budd and I did a lot of testing and<BR>posting about this issue back in 2006 or 2007. Newer designs have<BR>reinforced noses which help but bottom line, don't nose mount an electric<BR>motor without rear support. It "might" last 1 or 500 flights but 501 won't<BR>be as successful.<BR><BR>ChrisOn 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:Great observations. I am curious<BR>about the numbers myself, maybe in my spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old<BR>physics books and crunch some
numbers. Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.comFrom" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.comFrom">getterflash@yahoo.comFrom</A>: ehaury mailto:<A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">ejhaury@comcast.net</A><BR>To: mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>; General pattern<BR>discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model-<BR>RESUBMITTED I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've discussed<BR>possibilities - obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the<BR>structure could handle. Torque & precession have been with us since we stuck<BR>engines & props on
the front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much<BR>with the advent of E power - actually went down with the use of lighter<BR>props. I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't change<BR>much. The rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g and rotates up to<BR>7K rpm with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs around 100g,<BR>but it rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with the gearbox,<BR>can probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most other popular<BR>outrunners fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made<BR>the calcs.) I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14<BR>is less powerful). It is fir!<BR>m ly front mounted with also a solid rear mount. I think we all know the<BR>importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's been no success running<BR>inrunners without a rear support. While some have had success running the Q<BR>without a rear support (bet the
prop was light), these things really need a<BR>more sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt / fuse nose) than may be<BR>obvious. Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning<BR>curve, hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will prevent<BR>further occurrences. Earl----- Original Message ----- From: mike mueller To:<BR>Bob Kane ; General pattern discussion Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012<BR>8:26 AMSubject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the<BR>Model- RESUBMITTED Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things<BR>watching Youtube video's. Thanks Bob From: Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR>To: Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012
7:07 AM<BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are<BR>two torque vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn<BR>the prop and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's<BR>mount. If that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would<BR>probably be fine. But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession)<BR>resulting from attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis.<BR>Here is a good youtube video demonstrating the effect . ... .<BR><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A> Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.comFrom" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.comFrom">getterflash@yahoo.comFrom</A>: mike mueller mailto:<A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com"
ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A><BR>To: Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED Say what?"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic<BR>precession" I feel infinitlty smarter Is it violent warble? What prop were<BR>you running???? Mike From: Bob Kane mailto:<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>To: mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>; General<BR>pattern discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED The Q80 has a large diameter rotating mass, and it brings with<BR>it a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is<BR>spinning. In laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw<BR>or pitch. A rear brace would help keep this force in check. <BR>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.comFrom" ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.comFrom">getterflash@yahoo.comFrom</A>: mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A><BR>mailto:<A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A><BR>To: General pattern discussion mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR>RESUBMITTED<BR>I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A
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