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Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard way
that nose mounted outrunners without a rear support would lead to
structural failures with nearly 100% certainty. My nose mounted
Genesis lasted 1 1/2 flights before failure. Others had many more
flights but even the best cases I know of had nose structure
stresses and cracking due to the unsupported nose mounting. Jerry
Budd and I did a lot of testing and posting about this issue back in
2006 or 2007. Newer designs have reinforced noses which help but
bottom line, don't nose mount an electric motor without rear
support. It "might" last 1 or 500 flights but 501 won't be as
successful.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1354729102.3541.YahooMailNeo@web113313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times
new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">
<div><span>Great observations. I am curious about the numbers
myself, maybe in my spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old
physics books and crunch some numbers. </span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>Bob Kane<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
ehaury <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net"><ejhaury@comcast.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> mike
mueller <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com"><mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com></a>; General
pattern discussion
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of
the Model- RESUBMITTED<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<div id="yiv732353877">
<style></style>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial">I don't know what caused
Charlie's failure, we've discussed possibilities -
obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the
structure could handle.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Torque & precession have
been with us since we stuck engines & props on
the front of airplanes. They really haven't changed
much with the advent of E power - actually went down
with the use of lighter props.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I'd just like to offer that the
Hacker Q80 design doesn't change much. The rotating
outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g and rotates
up to 7K rpm with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a
C50 also weighs around 100g, but it rotates up to
40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with the
gearbox, can probably apply torque quicker than the
outie. Most other popular outrunners fall somewhere
between these. (Be neat if someone actually made the
calcs.)</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I've lots of flights with the
Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14 is less powerful).
It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear
mount. I think we all know the importance of a nose
ring on a YS and there's been no success running
inrunners without a rear support. While some have
had success running the Q without a rear support
(bet the prop was light), these things really need a
more sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt /
fuse nose) than may be obvious.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Essentially something slightly
different that adds to the learning curve, hopefully
Charlie's experience and these discussions will
prevent further occurrences.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Earl</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px
solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;"
dir="ltr">
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;">----- Original Message
----- </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial; background-color:
rgb(228, 228, 228); background-position: initial
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
title="mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com"
ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mike
mueller</a> </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
title="getterflash@yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">Bob Kane</a> ;
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General
pattern discussion</a> </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday,
December 05, 2012 8:26 AM</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of
the Model- RESUBMITTED</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times,
serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div style=""><span style="">Very cool video. I've
learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube
video's. Thanks Bob<var
id="yiv732353877yui-ie-cursor"></var><br
style="" class="yiv732353877yui-cursor">
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new
york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new
york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b>
Bob Kane <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b>
Generalpatterndiscussion <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
[NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the
Nose of the Model - RESUBMITTED<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div id="yiv732353877">
<div>
<div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255); font-family: 'times new roman', 'new
york', times, serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 12pt;">
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;">Charlie
was spot on with his comment on
torque, but there are two torque
vectors at work, the first is the
obvious force required to turn the
prop and the "equal but opposite"
torque the motor transmits to it's
mount. If that was all we had to worry
about, the single mount would probably
be fine. But there is the other torque
(gyroscopic precession) resulting
from attempting to move a rotating
mass in the pitch or yaw axis. Here
is a good youtube video demonstrating
the effect . .. . </span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: 'times new
roman', 'new york', times, serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="font-family: 'times new
roman', 'new york', times, serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div id="yiv732353877">
<div style="background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family:
'times new roman', 'new york',
times, serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;
font-family: 'times new roman',
'new york', times, serif; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><font
face="times new roman, new
york, times, serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent;"><font
face="times new roman, new
york, times, serif"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</a><br>
</font></div>
<div style="background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;
font-family: 'times new roman',
'new york', times, serif; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new york', times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new york', times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;">Bob
Kane<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new york', times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new york', times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font
face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> mike mueller
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com"><mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com></a><br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b>
Bob Kane
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"><getterflash@yahoo.com></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, December 4, 2012
4:34 PM<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Serious Torque on the Nose
of the Model - RESUBMITTED<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div id="yiv732353877">
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);
font-family: 'times new
roman', 'new york',
times, serif; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:
12pt;">
<div><span>Say what?</span></div>
<div
style="background-color:
transparent;
font-style: normal;
font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new
york', times, serif;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 16px;"><span>"a
large reactionary
force called
gyroscopic
precession"</span></div>
<div
style="background-color:
transparent;
font-style: normal;
font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new
york', times, serif;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 16px;"><span> I
feel infinitlty
smarter</span></div>
<div
style="background-color:
transparent;
font-style: normal;
font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new
york', times, serif;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 16px;"><span> Is
it violent warble?</span></div>
<div
style="background-color:
transparent;
font-style: normal;
font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new
york', times, serif;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 16px;"><span> What
prop were you
running????</span></div>
<div
style="background-color:
transparent;
font-style: normal;
font-family: 'times
new roman', 'new
york', times, serif;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 16px;"><span> Mike<var
id="yiv732353877yui-ie-cursor"></var></span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:
'times new roman',
'new york', times,
serif; font-size:
12pt;">
<div
style="font-family:
'times new roman',
'new york', times,
serif; font-size:
12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font
face="Arial"
size="2"> <b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> Bob Kane
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"><getterflash@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">"vicenterc@comcast.net"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net"><vicenterc@comcast.net></a>;
General pattern
discussion
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday,
December 4, 2012
7:54 AM<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Serious Torque
on the Nose of
the Model -
RESUBMITTED<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div
id="yiv732353877">
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255, 255,
255);
font-family:
'times new
roman', 'new
york', times,
serif; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size:
12pt;">
<div><span><font
face="times
new roman, new
york, times,
serif"
size="3">The
Q80 has a
large </font><font
face="times
new roman, new
york, times,
serif">diameter</font><font
face="times
new roman, new
york, times,
serif"
size="3"> rotating
mass, and it
brings with it
a large
reactionary
force called
gyroscopic
precession
when it is
spinning. In
laymen terms
it will
strongly
resist
changing
direction in
yaw or pitch.
A rear brace
would help
keep this
force in
check. </font></span></div>
<div
style="background-color:
transparent;
font-style:
normal;
font-family:
'times new
roman', 'new
york', times,
serif; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size:
16px;"><span><font
face="times
new roman, new
york, times,
serif"
size="3"><br>
</font></span></div>
<div
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:'times
new roman',
'new york',
times,
serif;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);FONT-SIZE:16px;"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;"></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:
'times new
roman', 'new
york', times,
serif;
font-size:
12pt;">Bob
Kane<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:
'times new
roman', 'new
york', times,
serif;
font-size:
12pt;">
<div
style="font-family:
'times new
roman', 'new
york', times,
serif;
font-size:
12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font
face="Arial"
size="2"> <b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">"vicenterc@comcast.net"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net"><vicenterc@comcast.net></a><br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b>
General
pattern
discussion
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday,
December 4,
2012 8:27 AM<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Serious Torque
on the Nose of
the Model -
RESUBMITTED<br>
</font></div>
<br>
I understand
that a rear
brace is a
must for this
motor. <br>
<br>
Vicente
"Vince"
Bortone<br>
Sent via
BlackBerry by
AT&T<br>
<br>
-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: "Charlie
Barrera" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net"
target="_blank" href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</a>><br>
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rel="nofollow"
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target="_blank"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Date: Tue, 4
Dec 2012
07:02:47 <br>
To: <<a
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rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Reply-To:
General
pattern
discussion
<<a
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Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion]
Serious Torque
on the Nose of
the Model -<br>
RESUBMITTED<br>
<br>
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