<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">As somebody who is trying to get back into Pattern and those like me that have Zero experience with high power <VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR>electric setups, is there an article or a something posted that we can reference?</SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Larry Diamond</SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">I agree with Chris. I’ve personally had thousands of flights with nose mounted motors with rear supports and never had so much as a hint of failure. If you count all the flights I’ve seen Andrew fly with his nose mounted, rear supported motors as well as countless others at the practice field and on the contest trail, the number probably reaches into the tens of thousands. </SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">The only time I’ve ever witnessed a catastrophic motor induced fuselage failure was while I was judging an FAI pilot flying an Axi-equipped Smaragd a few years back. Following a turnaround, there was a short, deep, rumbling sound that sounded a little like flutter with heavy bass followed by the departure of the motor and a significant section of the nose of the fuse. The motor was nose mounted and had no rear support. </SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">My best guess, and it is just a guess, was that the prop arc coupled with the forces of the looping turnaround, set up a harmonic, or flutter if you will, that the fuse couldn’t contain. The rumble was very brief before it came apart. </SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">I have no engineering data to report, just practical experience. A nose mounted motor without a rear support is a disaster about to happen. As Chris said, it’s just a matter of when.</SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Verne Koester</SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Chris<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:50 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Bob Kane; General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED</SPAN></div></DIV></DIV>
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<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>Early in the electric transition, many of us found out the hard way that nose mounted outrunners without a rear support would lead to structural failures with nearly 100% certainty. My nose mounted Genesis lasted 1 1/2 flights before failure. Others had many more flights but even the best cases I know of had nose structure stresses and cracking due to the unsupported nose mounting. Jerry Budd and I did a lot of testing and posting about this issue back in 2006 or 2007. Newer designs have reinforced noses which help but bottom line, don't nose mount an electric motor without rear support. It "might" last 1 or 500 flights but 501 won't be as successful.<BR><BR>Chris</div>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>On 12/5/2012 12:38 PM, Bob Kane wrote:</div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>Great observations. I am curious about the numbers myself, maybe in my spare time (ha!) I'll pull out my old physics books and crunch some numbers. </div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> ehaury <A href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net</A><BR><B>To:</B> mike mueller <A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A>; General pattern discussion <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:02 AM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'">I don't know what caused Charlie's failure, we've discussed possibilities - obviously forces occurred that were beyond what the structure could handle.</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'">Torque & precession have been with us since we stuck engines & props on the front of airplanes. They really haven't changed much with the advent of E power - actually went down with the use of lighter props.</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'">I'd just like to offer that the Hacker Q80 design doesn't change much. The rotating outer member (Q80-14) weighs about 100g and rotates up to 7K rpm with an 1 1/2" radius. The rotor in a C50 also weighs around 100g, but it rotates up to 40K rpm on a 3/8" radius. The latter, with the gearbox, can probably apply torque quicker than the outie. Most other popular outrunners fall somewhere between these. (Be neat if someone actually made the calcs.)</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'">I've lots of flights with the Q80-11 without issue (the Q80-14 is less powerful). It is firmly front mounted with also a solid rear mount. I think we all know the importance of a nose ring on a YS and there's been no success running inrunners without a rear support. While some have had success running the Q without a rear support (bet the prop was light), these things really need a more sturdy rear support (or very stout front mnt / fuse nose) than may be obvious.</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'">Essentially something slightly different that adds to the learning curve, hopefully Charlie's experience and these discussions will prevent further occurrences.</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'">Earl</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mike mueller</A> </SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=getterflash@yahoo.com href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">Bob Kane</A> ; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:26 AM</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model- RESUBMITTED</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>Very cool video. I've learned a lot of neat things watching Youtube video's. Thanks Bob</div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Bob Kane <<A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>><BR><B>To:</B> Generalpatterndiscussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:07 AM<BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Fw: Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model - RESUBMITTED</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>Charlie was spot on with his comment on torque, but there are two torque vectors at work, the first is the obvious force required to turn the prop and the "equal but opposite" torque the motor transmits to it's mount. If that was all we had to worry about, the single mount would probably be fine. But there is the other torque (gyroscopic precession) resulting from attempting to move a rotating mass in the pitch or yaw axis. Here is a good youtube video demonstrating the effect . .. . </div></DIV>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QSiVC2g0</A></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> mike mueller <A href="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com">mailto:mikemueller@f3aunlimited.com</A><BR><B>To:</B> Bob Kane <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com</A> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:34 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model - RESUBMITTED</SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>Say what?</div></DIV>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>"a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession"</div></DIV>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal> I feel infinitlty smarter</div></DIV>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal> Is it violent warble?</div></DIV>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal> What prop were you running????</div></DIV>
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<div class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal> Mike</div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Bob Kane <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net</A> <A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net</A>; General pattern discussion <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:54 AM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times', 'serif'">The Q80 has a large diameter rotating mass, and it brings with it a large reactionary force called gyroscopic precession when it is spinning. In laymen terms it will strongly resist changing direction in yaw or pitch. A rear brace would help keep this force in check. </SPAN></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>Bob Kane<BR><A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A></div></DIV>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net</A> <A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net</A><BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 4, 2012 8:27 AM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model - RESUBMITTED</SPAN></div></DIV>
<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal><BR>I understand that a rear brace is a must for this motor. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: "Charlie Barrera" <<A href="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:charliebarrera@consolidated.net">charliebarrera@consolidated.net</A>><BR>Sender: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 07:02:47 <BR>To: <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Reply-To: General pattern discussion <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow
target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Serious Torque on the Nose of the Model -<BR> RESUBMITTED<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" rel=nofollow
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<div style="BACKGROUND: white" class=yiv1683548014MsoNormal>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.avg.com/</A><BR>Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5437 - Release Date: 12/04/12</div></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>
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