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<div><font style="background-color: transparent;" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Verne,</font></div>
<div>I hope you didn't take my comments as negative about the CB as I certainly didn't mean them that way. I understand how the process works. I'm glad the board is taking a hard look at them, and I'm glad that there are guys with your experience and current activity level on the board. I was trying to get some thoughts out there at this stage of the process.</div>
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<div>I know John Fuqua will be hit up this weekend at the Prattville contest with lots of ideas!</div>
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<div>Thanks for your comments.</div>
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<div style="clear: both;"><font color="black" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font color="black" face="arial"><span style="font-size: medium;" class="Apple-style-span">Jon</span></font></font></div>
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<div style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Verne Koester <verne@twmi.rr.com><br>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 10:51 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules change proposals<br>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">Hi Jon,</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">As a member of the CB, I’ve never been real crazy about the way the rules proposal system works but it is what it is. Many proposals are passed through the initial phase because they have some redeeming value that merits discussion and to allow cross proposals to “fix” flaws that are noticed under close scrutiny. The misnomer in the process is that each member of the CB will vote the same way in the second or final phase as it stands. It’s important for those most concerned with the proposals to openly discuss the proposals that pass the first phase and apply tweaks in the form of cross proposals if deemed necessary. Sometimes the CB will take on this task based on discussions that occur within the CB, but not always. The important thing to remember is that passing the first phase doesn’t necessarily make it a sure thing in the final vote. </span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">I can’t speak for the rest of the CB, but I’ll give you an example of problems I have with proposals in just one area. Proposals 13-7 and 13-9 call for an airplane to have the motor disconnected from the batteries before it leaves the runway after a flight. That means the caller will have to disarm the plane unassisted while it’s on the runway immediately following a flight. Do we really want the delays that’ll cause? What happens if the caller just gets to the plane and the pilot on the other line calls a dead stick? Now the caller is in harm’s way while he’s disarming the plane, particularly if he can’t hear everyone yelling for him to get off the runway. If he does hear everyone, scoops up the plane and gets off the runway while the plane is still armed, what then? In one of the proposals, that’s a direct violation. In the other one, it’s implied. Since no penalty is prescribed for either of the proposals, what does a CD do about the violation? And this is just one problem I see. There are others.</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">Having said all of this against my better judgment, I don’t intend to and won’t debate the proposals publicly, I’ll be plenty busy doing that within the CB. I just wanted everyone to understand how the process works.</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">These are the sorts of things the CB will be discussing between the first and second phase and trust me when I tell you there will be a lot of discussion on all the proposals that were passed through to the second phase. We also pay attention to the forum discussions.</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">Verne Koester</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jon Lowe<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules change proposals</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">Thanks Mark. Glad to see the board took a hard look at the proposals.</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">The proposal 13-4 on telemetry will require a cross proposal to fix the wording as noted here in the last few days on engine vs. motor, take out the stuff about the CD's discretion, or defeated altogether. No CD is going to be an expert on every transmitter's programming capabilities, downlink system, and motor/engine management system. There is a protest system to be used to define whether something is legal or not. Hopefully, this whole mess will be defeated by the CB.</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">As I read Mike Plummer's proposal 13-7 on battery disconnect, anyone who doesn't have an external arming plug would have to leave their canopy off, have a clear canopy, or have a peep hole to show the batteries are disconnected. Correct? I'm not sure that even an external arming plug would meet the letter of this rule, since you couldn't see that the batteries are not directly connected inside the airplane, bypassing the arming plug. And if we decide that presence of an arming plug is a "visible indication", someone who doesn't have one will have to leave their canopy off even when no batteries are installed, because there is no way to verify they are not installed and disconnected. I guess the way this is worded, the canopy would have to be off from the time the fuselage is taken out of the car until right before it is carried or taxied to the runway. Looks like another case of unintended consequences.</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ;">Proposal 13-8 needs a cross proposal to take out the words "using radio equipment with a failsafe function". Why restrict it? While I doubt anyone is using FM/PPM equipment anymore in pattern, in the event there are, there are devices that go between the throttle servo or speed control and the receiver that provide a failsafe function when signal is lost. Here's an example: <a href="http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=20618" target="_blank">http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=20618</a>.</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 13.5pt;">Jon</span></span><span style="font-family: ;"></span></div>
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<div style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Mark Atwood <<a href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</a>><br>
To: General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 8:20 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules change proposals</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;">Already complete. Proposals 2,4,6,7,8 were passed through for the cross proposal stage. </span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;">Mark Atwood</span></b><span style="color: black;"></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 9pt;">Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 9pt;"> </span><b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;">|</span></b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 9pt;"> President</span><span style="color: black;"></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 8.5pt;">5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: black;"></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 8.5pt;">Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 9pt;">|</span></b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 8.5pt;"> Fax: 440.684.3102</span><span style="color: black;"></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 8.5pt;"><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a> </span><b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 9pt;">|</span></b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 8.5pt;"><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><span style="color: black;"></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;">On Apr 24, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Dave Burton wrote:</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 11pt;">When is the CB initial vote?</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;"><a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Keith Hoard<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, April 24, 2012 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules change proposals</span><span style="color: black;"></span></div>
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<div style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Yup, you gotta store those in separate airtight containers.<br>
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Another question for Scott McHarg . . .<br>
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If I install both an Arming Plug and a Disarming Plug, are they wired in series or parallel?<br clear="all"><br>
Keith Hoard<br>
Collierville, TN<br>
<a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</a></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 7:33 AM, Bob Richards <<a href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">bob@toprudder.com</a>> wrote:</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">I bought a box of dihedral recently. I had a box of anhedral left over from the 70s (used for stabs back then) and I made the mistake of storing them next to each other. Apparently they cancelled each other out and all I have left now is some crumbled up cardboard.</div>
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--- On<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Mon, 4/23/12, Keith Hoard<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i><<a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</a>></i></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</div>
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From: Keith Hoard <<a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</a>></div>
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Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules change proposals</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">Date: Monday, April 23, 2012, 6:06 PM</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">The reason I was asking is because I had bought a box of down thrust from Shalimar Hobbies a couple years ago and still have some left over. </div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">If it's now illegal, I need to return what's left for a partial refund. </div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">The box of right thrust is still shrink wrapped, but I can't find the receipt. <br>
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On Apr 23, 2012, at 16:44, Ronald Van Putte <<a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vanputte@cox.net" target="_blank">vanputte@cox.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">I've just added an arming plug assembly to my Vanquish. It has the added feature of having the ability to minimize the coriolis acceleration due to precession of the earth and it self adjusts for latitude.</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">On Apr 23, 2012, at 4:33 PM, Scott McHarg wrote:</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">Only if you use a disarming plug and/or bore another hole in the side of your fuse. I heard something along the lines of the "Hoarder Policy" being written as we speak but only after a survey has been presented.</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Keith Hoard <<a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=khoard@gmail.com" target="_blank">khoard@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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On Apr 23, 2012, at 15:54, James Oddino <<a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=joddino@socal.rr.com" target="_blank">joddino@socal.rr.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">Scott, I don't want to beat this to death but you must be very careful. I could interpret this to disallow Contra Drive prop set ups that automatically cancel the effects of spiral slipstream, torque, gyroscopic precession and P-Factor. What about adding aerodynamic appendages that improve stability and damping? It is not clear why the aerodynamicist should should be given an advantage over the power management guy or the electronics guy. I'll never understand why the variable thrust alignment system was disallowed. </div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">I don't really care what is decided, but if the rule is not well defined it will cause turmoil and new guys thinking about getting into pattern won't like it.</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">On Apr 23, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Scott McHarg wrote:</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">Good Afternoon,<br>
First, let's agree that "Engine managment" was not a correct term that we derived from the "old days" and we will fix that (per John Fuqua) assuming it passes the initial vote. Second, let's not lose sight that we are speaking about telemetry and we are speaking of automated functions here, not those that require direct and manual input. The wording is such that engine management systems that COORDINATE (through telemetry and read: automatically adjust) power output (to maintain a speed or anything that may relate to) with model performance, position, or attitude. Honestly, this is no different than a gyro correcting attitude and we certainly don't want to allow that. We simply are trying to allow telemetry that is important for safety and continue to dis-allow anything that automates flying the aircraft. In my very humble opinion and to answer your question; Yes, I think we do want to outlaw something that makes our models fly better IF it is automated and not pilot-induced.</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:10 AM, James Oddino <<a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=joddino@socal.rr.com" target="_blank">joddino@socal.rr.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal">What does it mean? Electric motors change the power as a function of the load applied. For a given throttle setting the motor will draw more current as the model is pulled vertical for instance. Is the rule trying to prevent that or prevent an improvement in its ability to do that? Is it trying to outlaw braking or variable pitch props? </div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 10pt;">9. Engine management systems that coordinate power output with model performance, position, or </span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 13.5pt;">Scott A. McHarg</span></b></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: ; font-size: 13.5pt;">Scott A. McHarg</span></b><br>
Sr. Systems Engineer - Infrastructure<br>
Bryan Research & Engineering</div>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_f619e2d0-7d19-439c-8a01-e307f98e3e9d"><pre style="background: white;"><tt><span style="color: black;">_______________________________________________</span></tt></pre><pre style="background: white;"><tt><span style="color: black;">NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span></tt></pre><pre style="background: white;"><tt><span style="color: black;"><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></tt></pre><pre style="background: white;"><tt><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></tt></pre></div>
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