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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Dave.. In my mind accommodation
has all ready been made to cater to the electric crowd by shortening the
sequence so the electrics don't tax their batteries so hard especially when it
is windy. Why the perceived need to raise the weight limit to bring new
blood with no surveys being done. To my knowledge the B.O.D. has not made any
effort to do a serious back ground evaluation to see how a change will bring new
blood. Is the change only to accommodate a couple of fliers? Why should a rule
change be required that the majority are making weight. Many are doing it with
minimal exotic materials.. Granted they may not be full blown 2 meter ships but
again we are back to compromise. Every design and every propulsion system has
advantages and drawbacks. People make different choices for a variety of
reasons. I have no clue what your current campaigning plane weighs and if you
don't plan to compete at the NATS why worry about it. If you are intending to
compete at the NATS then the cost you invest to have a competitive aircraft
against some of the best fliers in the country and in some classes the world you
are going to spend much more on getting their and sleeping and eating their than
it would cost for a new model unless you live in driving distance. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>I still have time grasping the
argument that you either can't afford or don't want to bother with making weight
as it currently is. Yes it doesn't come automatically and you have to do your
homework or experiment to find what gives you the solution to your goal.
To me it sure sound like a couple of people have a pet project they are trying
to push through with doubtful and quite realistically cost driving influences. I
have seen many promises made since the 70's that would help promote pattern and
some had what seemed like good valid supporting arguments for it. Some were
benign changes but many drove people away. I have never seen the
organization make any effort to put the horse back in the barn by reversing any
trends that drove people away. And still some wonder why the ranks
continue to shrink. I aren't no rocket scientist for sure but even I can see the
results have not been productive to increasing participation. Just saying a
change will make it so don't make it factual. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>off de soap box... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>
Del </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 18, 2012 7:29
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
Proposals</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Del,
Where in any of the rules proposals is there any mandate to fly heavier
planes? You can still fly an under 5Kg plane and have a performance advantage.
I’m not proposing to bend any rules, I want to change the
rules.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
don’t want to fly glow any more. I want to fly electric. Why should I have to
spend extra $$ to meet a rule that has a built in inequity to electric
system? My choice is to accept a performance penalty to save a few bucks
(About $100.00/oz usually).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Del
R<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 18, 2012 7:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
Proposals<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave..
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">So if
you chose not to spend the dollars you can chose to use glow... Both are
viable means of campaigning on the trail. The choice is do you want to try to
bend the rules or comply within the rules and fly electric. If electric is
such a expensive choice the glow is the more affordable solution for some. Why
force a mandate because a few don't want to pay to play the electric solution.
Many are doing it quite well. Maybe time for a new plaque for the contestant
who places in the top 3 spending the least on the airframe.. lol..
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Now
that would be novel.. lol.. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Del </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Sunday, March
18, 2012 7:08 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Because
it cost me more to buy CF stuff, lighter servos, etc! Why don’t you get
that!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">And
how does the weight change make your glow stuff
oobsolete!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">You
don’t know me – what have I said that’s p**** & moan? I’m trying to make
a rational argument that you can’t seem to grasp.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Del R<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 18, 2012 6:49
PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If
the advantages are so great to fly electric then why p*** & moan about
making weight. Making all the glow powered aircraft obsolete does
what to help promote the sport.. Of `` I forgot.. That's not what is really
important. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Del </SPAN> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Sunday, March
18, 2012 2:06 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">George,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yours
is an interesting post. In an environment where we are all flying the same
power systems I think you would be spot on. However, what I’d like to see
is a change that accounts for the fact that glow planes must make 5Kg
without fuel and electric must make 5Kg with fuel. In order for comparable
planes to comply with the weight it’s necessary for electric to use more
hi-tech and expensive components, lighter less durable building
techniques, more expensive and lighter accessories, etc. thus increasing
the cost. Almost every glow 2M plane takes off above 5Kg and flies at
above 5Kg the entire sequence. I know there are exceptions but I think
it’s generally true. I know I could choose to fly glow and not have
an issue. However I want the advantages of electric without having to pay
a significant cost penalty to do so. Let’s fix the inequity of this in the
AMA classes.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave
Burton<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>George Kennie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 18, 2012
1:41 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>My understanding is that the 5Kg weight rule was
adopted because of the International standard,<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>and as part of the copendium, would have no less
adherence than any other rule, after all, a rule is <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>a rule and by vertue of being a rule becomes a
stipulation requiring adherence.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>In spite of the fact that a 2 meter airframe
powered by a glow motor appears to have little difficulty
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>achieving compliance with the standard and 2 meter
airframes powered by an electric motor pose<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>additional challenges, this in no way should bring into
contest adherence to the standard. "A RULE <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>is a RULE !"<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>This problem introduces a choice to be rendered on the
part of the participant. It would appear that<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>the choices become either fiscally based or possibly a
downsized effort in order to comply with the <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>standard.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Downsize ???, you say. How can I downsize when all my
competition is utilizing full 2 meter airframes?<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Is it possible that someone might compete with a Wind
110 S and actually fly well enough to actually<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>place in the upper eschelon in the upper
classes?<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Can I remind you that just last year Frakowiak flew a
40 sized Sequence airframe in Master's and <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>cleaned everybody's clock. "Oh yeah, but that was Frak"
comes the responce. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Aha !,.......we may just be coming to a newly realized
conclusion. "Could it possibly be that I don't fly <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>well enough to beat my competition no matter what size
airframe I am campaigning?" " Maybe it doesn't <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>have as much to do with the RULE as it does with me.
Could it possibly be that I could benefit from<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>a more comprehensive practice
routine?"<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>You can see where I'm going with this I'm sure and that
is, all RULES are to be honored and not <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>approached from the perspective of " How can I
adjust/modify this particular RULE so that what I
personally<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>am currently unable to do becomes, for me,
possible?"<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>So the bottom line, for me, becomes, I am the one who
needs to adjust and not the RULE to maintain<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>balance in the proposed statutes.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Just some ramblings guys as I see
things.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Georgie<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Dave Burton <<A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">“</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: red">If we want the weight rule to return in full force and
expect it to be enforceable rule, then we need the NSRCA to target a year
in the future where zero tolerance will come into effect for AMA Pattern.
That way, you achieve the desired result and you provide pilots with
enough time to renovate their equipment and focus on compliance when
buying or building. This avoids punishing people for flying in a world
that was at best a messy "grey zone" created by our own
lack of rigor as a special interest group.”</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: red"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>Interesting idea, But NRSCA couldn’t do this even if it
wanted to IMO. First, most CDs probably wouldn’t care to measure and
weigh, and second, NSRCA has no authority to mandate it. After all it’s
still an AMA event, not a NSRCA event.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>John Ford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 17, 2012 8:18
PM</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><B>To:</B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
Proposals<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=top>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>We are our own worst enemies...we wouldn't be having
this conversation if the rules had been enforced as intended by
everyone all the time. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>Since we have had different enforcement depending on
the CD, depending on the ED, depending on the contest, etc, we now
force each successive Nats ED to play "bad guy" in a way that tries
to annoy or alienate the least number of people.
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>Let's face it, I think that Arch has inherited a "no
win" scenario here and we shouldn't put the onus of the solution on
his shoulders. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>Today, the difference between a "legal" and an
"illegal" plane is limited to how much glue was used or the choice
of paint, prop, or brand of battery...it isn't because the heavier
plane is packing a game-changing feature that gives it the advantage
(I didn't see the contras shut everyone out in
2011, either). If one is looking to disqualify a
pilot because they feel they can do so on a technicality
fed by years/decades of ambiguity and lack of enforcement, then
things are really getting ugly.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>The mere fact that we are having this discusion has
created a situation where a significant number of pilots are
considering not attending the Nats (significant, because last year,
there were several who knew they didn't make weight but at the same
time knew they were not in the hunt but enjoyed flying at the Nats).
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>The solution isn't black and white, nor is it going
to be fixed overnight. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>If we want the weight rule to return in full force
and expect it to be enforceable rule, then we need the NSRCA to
target a year in the future where zero tolerance will come into
effect for AMA Pattern. That way, you achieve the desired result and
you provide pilots with enough time to renovate their equipment and
focus on compliance when buying or building. This avoids punishing
people for flying in a world that was at best a messy "grey
zone" created by our own lack of rigor as a special
interest group.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>Just my opinion, and by the way, my planes make
weight.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>John<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sat, 3/17/12, Del R <I><<A
href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com"
target=_blank>drykert2@rochester.rr.com</A>></I></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><BR>From: Del R <<A
href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com"
target=_blank>drykert2@rochester.rr.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals<BR>To: "General pattern
discussion" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Date:
Saturday, March 17, 2012, 7:25 PM<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">HMMMmmm!!!
Why both having rules if they are only occasionally adhered to. In
fairness to all honorable contestants, rules should be honored
whether PATTERN police are present or not. I sure would not
want to bust my butt spending the buckaroos and committing
the time to be legal at any local or regional or national event to
know that some can show up to beat up on me because they spent
their time practicing, but not flying a legal
plane.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
have never understood the desire for some to encourage hollow
victories. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Del </SPAN> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----
OriginaI Message ----- </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=jgghome@comcast.net
href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jgghome@comcast.net"
target=_blank>John Gayer</A> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A>
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Friday, March 16, 2012 10:19 PM</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>Arch,<BR>I certainly was not objecting to you
enforcing the weight rule at the Nats. I'm with you 100%
on that and any other rule enforcement at the Nats you can
afford to do. You have to admit that your decision to weigh
every plane created a lot of "discussion" on this list.<BR>Can't
see anyone going to the Nats knowing they are going to get just
a tearsheet and a bunch of zeros for their efforts. Again, this
is not to imply you should be doing anything different, just
that we should change the rule to encourage participation in the
future.<BR>John<BR><BR>On 3/16/2012 7:55 PM, Archie Stafford
wrote: <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>Hey, all I did was decide to enforce an existing
rule. Actually, I didn't have to say a thing except for how it
was going to be enforced. Frankly, if I had the number of people
available to strictly enforce every rule, I would. If
nothing else my decision has at least sparked the debate about
the rule. It has never made sense to me to never enforce it.
Personally I think it needs to be left alone, but others don't.
Even this year, no one is saying you can't fly a heavy airplane.
You just wont get to keep the scores for that round. I seriously
doubt someone with a real shot at winning would show up with a
heavy airplane anyway. People can even have their tear sheets
for the round. It just wont be listed in the
results. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>Arch<BR><BR>Sent from my
iPhone<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><BR>On Mar 16, 2012, at 9:48 PM, John Gayer
<<A
href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jgghome@comcast.net"
target=_blank>jgghome@comcast.net</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>Point taken about having to serve notice that
you are going to enforce a rule at a local contest. Note that
Arch had to do that for the Nats this year and such a clatter
did arise....<BR><BR><BR>On 3/16/2012 6:53 PM, Dave Burton
wrote: <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">John,
one issue about waive a rule notification in really bothers me
in your suggestion. Having to post in advance 30 days that a
CD will enforce a rule is counter to any other process I’ve
seen. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It
becoming clear -eliminating the max weight rule is the only
system that really works. LOL</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A
href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Gayer<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March
16, 2012 8:20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
Proposals</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>This won't work very well, in my opinion. Who is going to the
Nats if they start out 5-10% behind? This does nothing to
increase attendance and is detrimental to operation of local
contests. All it takes is an unhappy pilot feeling he was
home-towned protesting vociferously about the heavy airplane
that just beat him and demanding a weight check that might
reverse the first and second places. <BR><BR>IF the CD denies
the protest, you've lost a pilot. If you do a weight check and
it fails, then you've lost a different pilot. To prevent this, a
CD must waive the weight rules on his sanction which is not
normally done now, although it should be. So extra work and/or
hassle for the CD and extra work for scorekeeper/scorekeeping
systems. For what gain? A rule that will not be enforced locally
and will keep pilots away from the Nats just as much as no
weight allowance at all. <BR><BR>At the very least, preface the
rule proposal with something like:<BR>This weight rule will be
enforced at the Nats. If a CD chooses to include this rule
at a local contest, he must publicize that fact appropriately to
all potential attendees at least 30 days prior to the contest.
<BR><BR>At a local contest, this officially leaves us with no
weight rule at all in AMA classes. That's probably OK as we
could reject on size if needed. Personally I would only turn
someone away if they brought a 42% Extra to fly in Masters and
maybe not even then...<BR><BR>Cheers<BR>John<BR><BR><BR>On
3/15/2012 7:54 AM, <A
href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ronlock@comcast.net"
target=_blank>ronlock@comcast.net</A> wrote:
<o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hi
All,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Here is a copy of
another proposal for consideration by the Contest Board along
with the others that have been
submitted.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">This one does not
disqualify a model for not meeting weight limits. It imposes
a score penalty, but still allows the
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">model to
participate.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Ron
Lockhart</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV><PRE>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><o:p></o:p></PRE></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P><PRE>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><o:p></o:p></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A
href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P><PRE>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A href="http://us.mc1205.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><o:p></o:p></PRE>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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