<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Pete,<br>
    Certainly expect the World's had an impact on the Nats attendance in
    2011. I was trying to point out that Intermediate and Advanced had
    larger percentage increases than Masters and F3A. I suggested that
    perhaps the 115 gram weight allowance in effect might have had a
    difference. Guess we'll find out this year although the gas price
    increases I keep hearing about for this summer may have a serious
    dampening effect on attendance. I hope not.<br>
    John<br>
    <br>
    On 3/15/2012 11:20 AM, Pete Cosky wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:CB878E79.C1BF%25pcosky@comcast.net"
      type="cite">
      <div>&lt;"As a point of interest, the Intermediate and Advanced
        class attendance at the 2011 Nats increased by about 50%. Was
        this caused by the 115 gram allowance for those classes? I don't
        know but I very much doubt it hurt. for comparison, Masters was
        up 34% and F3A 21%."&gt;</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>John I may be wrong, but my addled brain thinks the 115gr
        increase was passed last year and took effect in 2012. If I were
        going to hazard a guess I would say the increased NATS
        participation last year might have had something to do with the
        Worlds being here.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
        <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
          text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
          BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
          0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
          BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span
            style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> John Gayer &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">jgghome@comcast.net</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span> General
          pattern discussion &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Wed, 14 Mar 2012
          23:07:30 -0600<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> General pattern
          discussion &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re:
          [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>
          <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
            http-equiv="Content-Type">
          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Mark,<br>
            <br>
            I agree that the BEST way to have a light airplane is build
            your own but it not the easiest. Those of us who competed
            back in the dark ages know how to build and finish&nbsp; a balsa
            builtup or balsa/foam wing and work with a raw fiberglass
            fuse. <br>
            <br>
            We now have a lot of participants who not only do not have a
            clue about building a wing or finishing a raw epoxyglass
            fuse, they are even reluctant to assemble one of the current
            breed of ARFs. If they tear out the gear, they need help
            getting back in the air. Options are more limited for these
            folks and they do not all have unlimited resources. They are
            part of our pattern community and are some of our more avid
            pattern competitors. They have a lot of respect for those
            who can build but they are not willing to put in the hours
            through the years we spent acquiring those skills.<br>
            <br>
            While there are many, myself included, who could build
            pattern planes today we choose instead to buy. This is&nbsp;
            often a time vs money decision where my time is more
            valuable to me than the dollars I send to the Chinese. For
            others, it is not a choice- buying is a necessity. If you
            don't know how to build light and straight, you certainly do
            not know how to repair light either. It is this part of our
            pattern community that I would like to help with an increase
            in the AMA only weight limit. If you like, it is&nbsp; those just
            starting out and those that are financially challenged that
            need help with a weight allowance, not you and me. And those
            are the flyers we need to help if we are to have any chance
            to make pattern grow.<br>
            <br>
            It seems very clear that the world-wide pattern airframe
            industry is driven by the FAI weight and size limit. That we
            here in the US increase our weight limit, as other countries
            have, will not impact the designs and airframes commonly
            available at a reasonable cost. Who is going to design a
            heavy airframe and expect to sell it? 50cc biplanes? go
            ahead and build your labor of love that has no market. If I
            practice every hour you spend designing, building, modifying
            and testing such a beast, I will be way ahead. There is no
            magic bullet in any airframe much less a heavy one
            regardless of power plant. There are many planes that will
            execute a wonderful pattern if straight, light and properly
            trimmed. That is a fact of life and not a rule.<br>
            <br>
            Being able to have the freedom to raise our weight limit is
            only made possible by the FAI specifications of a pattern
            model. If the FAI, in its infinite wisdom, were to raise
            either the size or the weight I will be right there helping
            to fight it as that change would bring on all the airframe
            change and added expense that many are concerned about.<br>
            As a point of interest, the Intermediate and Advanced class
            attendance at the 2011 Nats increased by about 50%. Was this
            caused by the 115 gram allowance for those classes? I don't
            know but I very much doubt it hurt. for comparison, Masters
            was up 34% and F3A 21%.<br>
            <br>
            Cheers<br>
            John(another grumpy old man)<br>
            maybe because we don't build enough anymore?<br>
            or still have ambroid and dope withdrawals?<br>
            <br>
            On 3/14/2012 6:35 AM, Mark Atwood wrote:
            <blockquote
              cite="mid:60C69525-C3A1-42E1-8125-CB0C1771C68F@paragon-inc.com"
              type="cite">Hey Jim,
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Not to be confrontational but some of that is simply
                not true. &nbsp;The EASIEST way to make weight right now is
                building your own with traditional materials and
                techniques. &nbsp;A simple built up balsa wing will save more
                than half a POUND (10oz) over a composite wing. &nbsp;A
                balsa/foam wing is slightly heavier but still saves a
                full 8oz. &nbsp; &nbsp; We've been building fiberglass Fuses since
                well before I started in this in the late 80's and the
                only change to the fuselages is layering some carbon in
                to stiffen the nose and gear area. &nbsp;Nothing magical
                there.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>The issue is somewhat the opposite of what you
                present. &nbsp;People don't WANT to build, they want to BUY.
                &nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>But even that is no longer a real issue. &nbsp;Are there
                some heavy planes? &nbsp;Sure. &nbsp;But a lot of the current
                planes on the market today make weight without issue for
                electric and anything glow seems to not be part of the
                discussion even though those aircraft are perfectly
                viable. &nbsp;</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Bottom line is that weight is a constraining factor.
                &nbsp;BY DESIGN. &nbsp;Without the constraint, designs and
                equipment WILL change, and that change will cost money
                and that will eventually be passed on to everyone. &nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
                <div> <span class="Apple-style-span"
                    style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0,
                    0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal;
                    font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
                    letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
                    orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px;
                    text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
                    2; word-spacing: 0px;
                    -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
                    -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
                    -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
                    -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
                    -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">
                    <div>
                      <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in;
                        font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                        serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color:
                            black; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">Mark
                            Atwood</span></b><span style="font-size:
                          11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:
                          Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in;
                        font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                        serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 9pt; color:
                            black; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">Paragon
                            Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span
                          style="font-size: 9pt; color: black;
                          font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><b><span
                            style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;
                            font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">|</span></b><span
                          style="font-size: 9pt; color: black;
                          font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;President</span><span
                          style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73,
                          125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in;
                        font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                        serif; "><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color:
                          black; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">5885&nbsp;Landerbrook&nbsp;Drive

                          Suite 130,&nbsp;Cleveland&nbsp;Ohio,&nbsp;44124</span><span
                          style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: black;
                          font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span
                          style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73,
                          125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in;
                        font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                        serif; "><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color:
                          black; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">Phone:
                          440.684.3101 x102&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><b><span
                            style="font-size: 9pt; color: black;
                            font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">|</span></b><span
                          style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: black;
                          font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;Fax:
                          440.684.3102</span><span style="font-size:
                          11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:
                          Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                        margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in;
                        font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                        serif; "><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color:
                          rgb(19, 81, 243); font-family: Verdana,
                          sans-serif; "><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com"
                            style="color: blue; text-decoration:
                            underline; ">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><b><span
                            style="font-size: 9pt; color: black;
                            font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">|</span></b><span
                          style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: black;
                          font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span
                          style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: rgb(19, 81,
                          243); font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; "><a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/"
                            style="color: blue; text-decoration:
                            underline; ">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span></div>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                  </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                </div>
                <br>
                <div>
                  <div>On Mar 14, 2012, at 1:42 AM, James Oddino wrote:</div>
                  <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                  <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
                    space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I
                    have not read all the comments regarding weight
                    increase proposals but Michael Harrison articulated
                    the best reason to increase the weight limit in some
                    private emails we shared not long ago. &nbsp;Excuse me if
                    this has been covered in this thread. &nbsp;In the old
                    days all the top pilots designed and built their own
                    airplanes. &nbsp;Now only those with access to expensive
                    tooling and equipment to produce composite models
                    can build an electric powered airplane to meet the
                    weight requirements. &nbsp;The current, arbitrary limit
                    stifles development. &nbsp;Throw out the weight limit.
                    &nbsp;What purpose does it serve?
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Also I seem to remember that in the late 60s
                      and early 70s the FAI requirement was specified in
                      terms of wing loading (Kg/Dm) and the area
                      included the wing and the stab. &nbsp;And I believe the
                      requirement was a minimum meaning that heavier was
                      okay. &nbsp;RVP, is Ron Chidgey still around? &nbsp;He could
                      probably tell us the straight scoop. &nbsp;I'm too old
                      to remember the details.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Jim&nbsp;</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                      <div>
                        <div>On Mar 13, 2012, at 9:13 PM, John Gayer
                          wrote:</div>
                        <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Peter,<br>
                            On behalf of the rules committee I would
                            like to thank you for your many
                            well-reasoned, thoughtful&nbsp; and
                            thought-provoking posts. The one below goes
                            far beyond the current rules cycle and
                            addresses areas that are key to the future
                            of pattern and the NSRCA. I would like to
                            hear more ideas about the direction we
                            should take, both from you and from others
                            on this list. <br>
                            John Gayer<br>
                            NSRCA Treasurer<br>
                            Rules Committee member<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            On 3/13/2012 1:42 PM, Peter Vogel wrote:
                            <blockquote
cite="mid:CAGBB6kLirDrtnQ9z5jSdgr5utEfzzRz9z=8F5B4s_mFrPybq2A@mail.gmail.com"
                              type="cite">Taking a lesson from our
                              former CEO (Steve Bennett, protege of Jack
                              Welch) -- whenever there's a heated
                              argument about a proposal, it is very
                              rarely the proposal itself that is the
                              source of the argument, rather, what
                              people are disagreeing about is WHAT they
                              are solving for (the "big Y") and the
                              dozen or so variables their perspective
                              believes influence the Y (the little X's)
                              -- if you can agree on the big Y before
                              you even start talking about the little
                              X's you think will move the lever and then
                              share your knowledge that leads to the
                              things you think will move the needle and
                              everyone else does the same, then there is
                              rarely argument and you will reach a
                              shared understanding of the tactics and
                              strategy that will move you forward. &nbsp;
                              And, of course, all the Big Y's are in
                              pursuit of "True North" which is what the
                              organization as a whole exists to achieve
                              (in the case of a company, it can be as
                              simple as "maximum return for
                              shareholders" in the case of the company I
                              work for it's Best-in-class results for
                              all three stakeholders (shareholders,
                              customers, employees). &nbsp;
                              <div> <br>
                              </div>
                              <div>So, let's start with the NSRCA
                                itself, why do we exist, and what are we
                                solving for? &nbsp;I think I heard someone
                                say "to support US participation in
                                international competition" -- I'll go
                                with that one for a moment...</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Last I checked, FAI-level performance
                                doesn't reside latent in the fetus
                                waiting to be activated when a child
                                first touches the sticks on a
                                transmitter and delivers a phenom-level
                                performance. &nbsp;It might happen, but I
                                believe even Andrew Jesky spent over a
                                decade in pursuit of the goal of winning
                                the precision competition at Tucson and
                                similarly in pursuit of a slot on the US
                                world F3A team... &nbsp;In short, talent is
                                developed -- that means brought up
                                through progressive levels of
                                competition where a decent showing is
                                possible for the person's current skill
                                level, or at least that they feel they
                                are making progress toward a successful
                                showing. &nbsp;If taking home wood isn't a
                                least a back-of-the-mind goal in the
                                lower levels, that's a rare circumstance
                                (I admit, for me the starting goal was
                                to not get all zeroes and to improve my
                                overall flying -- but I've been bitten
                                by the competitive bug and now I *want*
                                to do well, though I recognize I'm still
                                probably years away from being near the
                                top of the podium in sportsman given
                                limitations on the amount of practice I
                                can fit into my life). &nbsp;</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>So, proposed Big Y number 1 --
                                Promote and Support classes that allow
                                talent to be identified and developed to
                                ultimately lead to success in FAI. --
                                Probably needs some word smithing, but I
                                think it adequately explains why 401,
                                etc. exist. &nbsp;In any well-formed
                                development program, you want to see a
                                strong funnel of "newbies" coming in to
                                the bottom classes while people "leak"
                                in the boundaries between classes for
                                various reasons (hitting a talent
                                plateau, discovering the opposite sex,
                                lack of funds, other commitments more
                                important, lack/loss of practice
                                facilities, etc.) &nbsp;Some leakage is
                                organic and unavoidable, other leakage
                                is manageable, some is reversable (i.e.
                                many people come back to the hobby after
                                the, to quote Inga from <i>Young
                                  Frankenstein</i>, "Sweet Mystery of
                                Life", is no longer shiny and new, still
                                fun, but not the only thing to live
                                for). &nbsp;Controlling the controllable
                                leakage would be one of the X's to solve
                                for here, as would the "development" of
                                talent (read: training and coaching that
                                goes beyond the high-wing trainer) and,
                                arguably most importantly, bringing new
                                blood into the lower classes.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>I think a lot of the weight argument
                                relates to a lack of clarity about what
                                we were solving for with that proposal:</div>
                              <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Some think it relates to making
                                the lower classes more accessible -- I'm
                                willing to buy that, to a point, in that
                                getting a 2m bird to make weight can be
                                challenging and expensive, creating a
                                barrier to entry into the lower classes.
                                &nbsp;(as you progress through the classes,
                                the possibility of sponsorships, etc.
                                increase, making cost less of a concern
                                -- I'll talk about sponsorship later...)
                                &nbsp;But the argument can be made that at
                                the lower classes you are actually
                                probably a lot less willing to put an
                                expensive 2m 11lb (or 11+lb) plane at
                                risk and so you'll "fly what you brung"
                                which is probably a smaller plane (47"
                                Osiris, 48" Vanquish, 62" Osiris,
                                Wind50, hand-me-down Kaos, etc.) where
                                making weight isn't even a vague
                                concern.</div>
                              <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Some think it relates to aligning
                                ourselves with the international
                                community -- I believe that was even one
                                of the reasons for the change documented
                                in the proposal, someone did the
                                research and found that a number of
                                other countries' development classes
                                allow for 5500 grams (which is only a
                                10% variance from the FAI standard) and,
                                I believe, there was/is some evidence
                                for higher development class
                                participation in those countries than in
                                the US. &nbsp;We all know correlation is not
                                causation, so whether the increased
                                weight limit is the reason for the
                                higher participation or whether there
                                are other environmental factors (i.e.
                                BMFA's 'B' and 'C' certificate training
                                programs that take people beyond flying
                                a circuit with a high wing trainer) is
                                obviously debatable.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>When I voted yes on the weight issue
                                I did so in full knowledge that we
                                already have a 115g allowance in
                                Intermediate and Advanced as well as a
                                "fly what you brung" convention in
                                sportsman. &nbsp;My thinking was that in
                                today's global community, people move
                                from country to country a lot (as
                                director of training at my local field I
                                recently signed off two recent european
                                transplants to fly solo at our field, my
                                brother and his family have lived in
                                Indonesia and the UK for most of my
                                nephew's lives, having only just now
                                returned to the states after 16 years as
                                expats) and so we make it easier for
                                people who may have competed at their
                                equivalent of Intermediate and Advanced
                                or Masters to compete in US competitions
                                with the planes they moved with them. &nbsp;I
                                saw no likely harm in the change because
                                there's plenty of incentive to "keep it
                                light" to improve the flying
                                characteristics (except in the windiest
                                conditions), the other restrictions
                                regarding size, voltage, and sound
                                create further barriers to significant
                                weight increase if you want to be
                                competitive. &nbsp;So for people who, like
                                me, read the rules carefully before
                                getting into competition (My AMA# was on
                                the right wing at my first competition,
                                no one had to tell me I needed it) the
                                weight will be one less barrier to
                                considering competition. &nbsp; I also
                                thought it would encourage a degree of
                                "casual" competitors for whom pattern is
                                not the end-all-be-all of their
                                participation in RC but they have a
                                self-designed bird that competes well
                                but isn't a classic pattern ship.
                                &nbsp;"casual" competition at the local level
                                is, I believe, part of what it takes to
                                create the "critical mass" that makes a
                                competition viable for the club to host,
                                and for participants to feel that the
                                sport isn't dying off (similar to church
                                attendance, there's a certain level
                                above which growth is easier because
                                people believe in the viability of the
                                church). &nbsp;In short, I saw several
                                positives and no negatives to the
                                change, so I voted yes. &nbsp;Does it mean
                                I'm going to go out and campaign a 5500g
                                plane? &nbsp;No, it's not going to change
                                what I do -- my Vanquish makes weight
                                easily and will continue to do so even
                                if I have to repair the LG 3 more times
                                and I expect the 2M Osiris will be
                                similar when I get it later this summer.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>I promised I'd talk about sponsorship
                                -- this is peripheral to the weight
                                issue, but something the NSRCA should
                                think about if development of talent
                                within pattern is truly something we
                                believe we should be solving for -- I
                                know there are some sponsored pilots
                                here in D7, but it is my impression that
                                they are sponsored because they rose in
                                the ranks at a time when 3D didn't exist
                                and so pattern carried the "WOW" and was
                                one of the premier competition classes
                                in the US. &nbsp;I don't think I've ever
                                seen, at least here in D7, a
                                manufacturer rep (as opposed to
                                sponsored pilot) at a pattern event,
                                that says to me that pattern at the
                                local level, at least, isn't a "feeder"
                                for manufacturers to find local pilots
                                to represent their brand well at their
                                club field or local competitions.
                                &nbsp;Contrast that with any local huckfest
                                or strongly attended fun fly (which is
                                mostly 3D stuff and foam wing combat
                                these days) and you'll see at least one
                                other reason that I think we don't draw
                                the new blood that pattern probably once
                                did. &nbsp;I "grew up" watching the pattern
                                guys and their tuned pipes and fast
                                birds (mostly in magazines since I lived
                                in backwater Los Alamos, NM until I was
                                in college in TX) and they were almost
                                gods to me with their JR and Futaba
                                shirts. &nbsp; Where's the sponsor talent
                                (which includes piloting, but also
                                helping others with their setups,
                                coaching, etc. talent) identification in
                                pattern these days? &nbsp;If pattern were
                                *visibly* supported by the manufacturers
                                more, I think we'd also see an influx to
                                our branch of the hobby.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>'Nuff said.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <br>
                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
_______________________________________________<br>
                          NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  _______________________________________________<br>
                  NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                    href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></div>
                <br>
              </div>
              <br>
              <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
              <br>
              <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></pre>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </div>
        _______________________________________________
        NSRCA-discussion mailing list
        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></pre>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>