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Del,<br>
<br>
There is no way to create a survey that would please everyone. It
was put together quickly in order to get it out there in front of
you. Could it have been done better? Yes, probably. However, it is
always possible to contact any member of the committee or the board
directly if you have constructive comments or reasoned arguments on
either the proposals or the approach taken to present the proposals.
<br>
The problem I have, and responded to, is with the attitude that
because I don't agree with a position, that I must be a liar and a
cheat who is prepared to do anything to promote an agenda. These
kind of unfounded personal attacks have no place in the hobby. Dan
was not the first, nor probably the last, to use this approach. It
will not work.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On 2/18/2012 7:58 AM, Del wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:4C2F6D41B5FA45A1AD83C69271A18FF5@ownerayn17ov1d"
type="cite">
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<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Not that Dan needs
defending ~~ in the past the rules survey's that were
presented to the members at large have not in every case
been followed with the majority of votes. None of those
people are currently in office but once that occurs it does
taint the office for some in the community for life. Is that
fair or reasonable.. Of course not but it is real and it
does happen for some. The survey's could always be better
presented with options that aren't even up for choice in
many surveys. Which forces people into answering against
their true honest feelings some times in order to contribute
something in hopes of solution and resolution to the
survey. Better to have a survey than not have one at all.
But in all fairness to the masses some leeway with their
allowing write ins or at least more choices to get the best
grasp of what is truly acceptable to the majority. It not be
easy to create a fair and balanced survey with some hot
potatoes ( weight being one e.g.. ) Use the rational that
something would be safer if more weight was allowed shows a
bias that something is unsafe because of being forced to
meet a limit. If others are doing it safely either they have
deeper pockets or a bigger imagination. I have never found
as a group a more safer bunch of fliers I don't feel nervous
around that precision pattern pilots. Their have been few
and rare exceptions but they were one timers at local
events. </font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"> </font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"> Del</font></strong></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="jgghome@comcast.net"
href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John Gayer</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General
pattern discussion</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February
18, 2012 1:21 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Dan,<br>
<br>
It's really not clear to me what your problem is. At least the
appearance is that you do not trust the BOD to provide you with
honest leadership. There are three members out of five on the
rules committee that are current members of the BOD. This is a
hard-working committee that has shown itself capable of
compromise and turned these proposals around very quickly. It is
one thing for you to disagree vehemently with the committee and
another to accuse the members of lying, hidden agendas and
falsifying surveys. Apparently "volunteer" is also a dirty word
but the NSRCA would not function without them. If this is all
true than I'm wasting my time with this post as I must be part
of the problem. Scott has been an honest and open leader of the
committee. He has the full support of the committee and the
board. Having a survey to obtain input from the membership and
the pattern community as a whole was Scott's idea. The raw
survey data is not modifiable by Scott. He can access it for
results and that is all. To suggest that he or anyone else on
the committee would falsify results is very insulting. <br>
<br>
The rules committee is operating at the direction of the board.
The board members were presented with the four topics that have
evolved as rule change proposals. The board was presented with
the original outline in January that led to the formation of a
committee and has also been presented with the current versions
of the proposals prior to the survey. I'm sure many of the board
members have also seen the vitriol poured on the committee by a
few online. All I have received from the board at this point are
words of encouragement.<br>
<br>
This does not mean that all the proposals as presented by the
committee will get a rubber stamp of approval from the board.
The committee expects further modification or possible
dismissal of proposals based on the survey and
opinions/amendments/votes of board members. No matter whether
the proposals are passed as is, modified or dropped, there will
be some unhappy folks on the board, the committee and the
pattern community as there are supporters and detractors for all
the proposals.<br>
<br>
I have always thought that all those great pattern folks I have
met around the country and the world are capable of civil
discourse, amiable disagreement and serious compromise when it
comes to matters like these. What I have seen online about these
four proposals and the imputed ethics of the committee members
has shaken my faith. It has not, however, shaken my desire to
see this task through to the end.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
NSRCA Treasurer<br>
Rules Committee member<br>
<br>
On 2/17/2012 8:52 PM, Dan Curtis wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:1329537160.96280.YahooMailRC@web181311.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div>Okay, that is it! I asked because I want to know, I
have served on the board for several years prior and we
were asked to prove darn near everything we did, including
surveys. So if you want to attack with a C'mon Man so be
it. From the views you expressed on RCU we know how you
stand on the main issue of weight, from the minutes of the
meetings for this year we know that you were able to
select "volonteers" to complete your committee, we know
that the preamble was written in a way to present the
board as being for the proposed changes, so we know that
some seem to have an agenda. You asked for it so you got
it. So it would appear that we have no real verifiable
way of supporting survey results one way or the other.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I seldom post on this forum, since it usually just
banter between old friends and foes and full of insider
jokes but these so called proposals are things that should
be discussed on this forum. They should have been
discussed prior to being placed in any type of survey.
They affect our sport and I believe your survey will show
that they would effect it adversely. We have been through
all of this before, over and over on weight. It seems
like a resurecting ghost that we can't keep underground. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The fact that you seem so defensive of your baby also
adds to my doubt about this whole fiasco. Now, lay off
the attacks and either answer the questions or ingnore
them, your choice Mr. Chairman.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Dan<br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b>
Scott McHarg <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com"><scmcharg@gmail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
General pattern discussion <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Fri, February 17, 2012 9:34:22 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey<br>
</font><br>
Dan,<br>
It was actually 16 times you voted including your
original. I've taken care of the extras for you. As
far as factual, really? Do you honestly think that
way? They will be factual because we are here to serve
you. If the majority says they don't like something,
what would be the purpose of doing it? If we wanted to
push our own agendas, why even have a survey? C'mon Man!<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:31
PM, Dan Curtis <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:warrior523@att.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:warrior523@att.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">warrior523@att.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid;
MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div>Well, lets hope that is true, I only voted
about 15 times so not a problem.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>One other question, how will we know the
results are factual? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Dan<br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><font
face="Tahoma">
<hr size="1"> <b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b>
Scott McHarg <<a
href="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">scmcharg@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Fri, February 17, 2012 9:25:53 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey<br>
</font>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
Hi Dan,<br>
It just makes more work for me (which
I'm sure Keith H. would enjoy greatly as
he seems to have his panties in a wad).
We have several filters in place so I'll
just filter out the duplicate entries.
We will know who is trying to "pad the
results". There were several folks that
were having trouble accessing the system
so we had to remove the one time per
user. Either way, only the initial
entry will be taken and if a bunch go in
just to screw it up for everyone, we'll
just shut it down. You're right, it
makes it a bit useless when people do
that.<br>
<br>
Have a good weekend,<br>
Scott<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 17,
2012 at 9:04 PM, Dan Curtis <span
dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:warrior523@att.net"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:warrior523@att.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">warrior523@att.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc
1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new
roman, new york, times, serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div>Guys,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>When the survey was put up
on the website I filled it out
and submitted my answers.
Then I could not get back in
to the survey. Which I assume
was to stop a person from
voting more than once. Well,
I was on the website earlier
tonight and for the heck of it
I hit the survey link and low
and behold I was back in and
was able to fill the survey
out again. If I hit submit, I
get the results sumitted
message. It appears that a
person can vote as many times
as they see fit now. I had
another person or two try the
same thing with the same
results. Is this feature okay
or is it making the survey
results a bit useless?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It may still be only
countng the first time you
voted or submitted but that is
not the way it appears.
Anybody got an answer???</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div> </div>
<div>Dan</div>
</font></span></div>
</div>
<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
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style="FONT-FAMILY: comic sans ms,
sans-serif" size="4">Scott A. McHarg</font></b><br>
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