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<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>whole heartedly concur John..
</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>
Del</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John Gayer</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:46
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals
Survey</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Del,<BR><BR>There is no way to create a survey that would
please everyone. It was put together quickly in order to get it out there in
front of you. Could it have been done better? Yes, probably. However, it is
always possible to contact any member of the committee or the board directly
if you have constructive comments or reasoned arguments on either the
proposals or the approach taken to present the proposals. <BR>The problem I
have, and responded to, is with the attitude that because I don't agree with a
position, that I must be a liar and a cheat who is prepared to do anything to
promote an agenda. These kind of unfounded personal attacks have no place in
the hobby. Dan was not the first, nor probably the last, to use this approach.
It will not work.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>On 2/18/2012 7:58 AM, Del wrote:
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<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Not that Dan needs defending ~~
in the past the rules survey's that were presented to the members at large
have not in every case been followed with the majority of votes. None of
those people are currently in office but once that occurs it does taint the
office for some in the community for life. Is that fair or reasonable.. Of
course not but it is real and it does happen for some. The survey's could
always be better presented with options that aren't even up for choice in
many surveys. Which forces people into answering against their true honest
feelings some times in order to contribute something in hopes of
solution and resolution to the survey. Better to have a
survey than not have one at all. But in all fairness to the masses
some leeway with their allowing write ins or at least more choices to
get the best grasp of what is truly acceptable to the majority. It not be
easy to create a fair and balanced survey with some hot potatoes ( weight
being one e.g.. ) Use the rational that something would be safer if
more weight was allowed shows a bias that something is unsafe because
of being forced to meet a limit. If others are doing it safely either they
have deeper pockets or a bigger imagination. I have never found as a group a
more safer bunch of fliers I don't feel nervous around that precision
pattern pilots. Their have been few and rare exceptions but they were one
timers at local events. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>
Del</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">John Gayer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 18, 2012
1:21 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Proposals Survey</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Dan,<BR><BR>It's really not clear to me what your problem
is. At least the appearance is that you do not trust the BOD to provide
you with honest leadership. There are three members out of five on the
rules committee that are current members of the BOD. This is a
hard-working committee that has shown itself capable of compromise
and turned these proposals around very quickly. It is one thing for you to
disagree vehemently with the committee and another to accuse the members
of lying, hidden agendas and falsifying surveys. Apparently "volunteer" is
also a dirty word but the NSRCA would not function without them. If this
is all true than I'm wasting my time with this post as I must be part of
the problem. Scott has been an honest and open leader of the committee. He
has the full support of the committee and the board. Having a survey
to obtain input from the membership and the pattern community as a whole
was Scott's idea. The raw survey data is not modifiable by Scott. He can
access it for results and that is all. To suggest that he or anyone else
on the committee would falsify results is very insulting.
<BR><BR>The rules committee is operating at the direction of the board.
The board members were presented with the four topics that have evolved as
rule change proposals. The board was presented with the original outline
in January that led to the formation of a committee and has also been
presented with the current versions of the proposals prior to the survey.
I'm sure many of the board members have also seen the vitriol poured on
the committee by a few online. All I have received from the board at this
point are words of encouragement.<BR><BR>This does not mean that all the
proposals as presented by the committee will get a rubber stamp of
approval from the board. The committee expects further modification or
possible dismissal of proposals based on the survey and
opinions/amendments/votes of board members. No matter whether the
proposals are passed as is, modified or dropped, there will be some
unhappy folks on the board, the committee and the pattern community as
there are supporters and detractors for all the proposals.<BR><BR>I
have always thought that all those great pattern folks I have met around
the country and the world are capable of civil discourse, amiable
disagreement and serious compromise when it comes to matters like these.
What I have seen online about these four proposals and the imputed
ethics of the committee members has shaken my faith. It has not, however,
shaken my desire to see this task through to the end.<BR><BR>John
Gayer<BR>NSRCA Treasurer<BR>Rules Committee member<BR><BR>On 2/17/2012
8:52 PM, Dan Curtis wrote:
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<DIV>Okay, that is it! I asked because I want to know, I
have served on the board for several years prior and we were asked
to prove darn near everything we did, including surveys. So if you
want to attack with a C'mon Man so be it. From the views you
expressed on RCU we know how you stand on the main issue of weight, from
the minutes of the meetings for this year we know that you were able to
select "volonteers" to complete your committee, we know that the
preamble was written in a way to present the board as being for the
proposed changes, so we know that some seem to have an agenda. You
asked for it so you got it. So it would appear that we have no
real verifiable way of supporting survey results one way or the
other.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I seldom post on this forum, since it usually just banter between
old friends and foes and full of insider jokes but these so called
proposals are things that should be discussed on this forum. They
should have been discussed prior to being placed in any type of
survey. They affect our sport and I believe your survey will show
that they would effect it adversely. We have been through all of
this before, over and over on weight. It seems like a resurecting
ghost that we can't keep underground. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The fact that you seem so defensive of your baby also adds to my
doubt about this whole fiasco. Now, lay off the attacks and
either answer the questions or ingnore them, your choice Mr.
Chairman.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dan<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Scott McHarg <A
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><scmcharg@gmail.com></A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion <A
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Fri, February 17, 2012
9:34:22 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey<BR></FONT><BR>Dan,<BR> It was
actually 16 times you voted including your original. I've taken
care of the extras for you. As far as factual, really? Do
you honestly think that way? They will be factual because we are
here to serve you. If the majority says they don't like something,
what would be the purpose of doing it? If we wanted to push our
own agendas, why even have a survey? C'mon Man!<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Dan Curtis <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:warrior523@att.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:warrior523@att.net">warrior523@att.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Well, lets hope that is true, I only voted about 15 times so not
a problem.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>One other question, how will we know the results are
factual? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dan<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Scott McHarg
<<A href="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com">scmcharg@gmail.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion
<<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow
target=_blank moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Fri, February 17, 2012
9:25:53 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey<BR></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR>Hi Dan,<BR> It just makes more work for
me (which I'm sure Keith H. would enjoy greatly as he seems to have
his panties in a wad). We have several filters in place so I'll
just filter out the duplicate entries. We will know who is
trying to "pad the results". There were several folks that were
having trouble accessing the system so we had to remove the one time
per user. Either way, only the initial entry will be taken and
if a bunch go in just to screw it up for everyone, we'll just shut it
down. You're right, it makes it a bit useless when people do
that.<BR><BR>Have a good weekend,<BR>Scott<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:04 PM, Dan Curtis
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:warrior523@att.net" rel=nofollow
target=_blank moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:warrior523@att.net">warrior523@att.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new
roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Guys,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When the survey was put up on the website I filled it out and
submitted my answers. Then I could not get back in to the
survey. Which I assume was to stop a person from voting more
than once. Well, I was on the website earlier tonight and for
the heck of it I hit the survey link and low and behold I was back
in and was able to fill the survey out again. If I hit submit,
I get the results sumitted message. It appears that a person
can vote as many times as they see fit now. I had another
person or two try the same thing with the same results. Is
this feature okay or is it making the survey results a bit
useless?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It may still be only countng the first time you voted or
submitted but that is not the way it appears. Anybody got an
answer???</DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#888888>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dan</DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR><B style="COLOR: rgb(51,51,255)"><FONT
style="FONT-FAMILY: comic sans ms,
sans-serif" size=4>Scott A.
McHarg</FONT></B><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR><B style="COLOR: rgb(51,51,255)"><FONT
style="FONT-FAMILY: comic sans ms, sans-serif" size=4>Scott A.
McHarg</FONT></B><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
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