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<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Not that Dan needs defending ~~ in
the past the rules survey's that were presented to the members at large have not
in every case been followed with the majority of votes. None of those people are
currently in office but once that occurs it does taint the office for some in
the community for life. Is that fair or reasonable.. Of course not but it is
real and it does happen for some. The survey's could always be better presented
with options that aren't even up for choice in many surveys. Which forces people
into answering against their true honest feelings some times in order to
contribute something in hopes of solution and resolution to the
survey. Better to have a survey than not have one at all. But in
all fairness to the masses some leeway with their allowing write ins or at
least more choices to get the best grasp of what is truly acceptable to the
majority. It not be easy to create a fair and balanced survey with some hot
potatoes ( weight being one e.g.. ) Use the rational that something would
be safer if more weight was allowed shows a bias that something is unsafe
because of being forced to meet a limit. If others are doing it safely either
they have deeper pockets or a bigger imagination. I have never found as a group
a more safer bunch of fliers I don't feel nervous around that precision pattern
pilots. Their have been few and rare exceptions but they were one timers at
local events. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>
Del</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John Gayer</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 18, 2012 1:21
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals
Survey</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Dan,<BR><BR>It's really not clear to me what your problem is.
At least the appearance is that you do not trust the BOD to provide you with
honest leadership. There are three members out of five on the rules committee
that are current members of the BOD. This is a hard-working committee
that has shown itself capable of compromise and turned these proposals around
very quickly. It is one thing for you to disagree vehemently with the
committee and another to accuse the members of lying, hidden agendas and
falsifying surveys. Apparently "volunteer" is also a dirty word but the NSRCA
would not function without them. If this is all true than I'm wasting my time
with this post as I must be part of the problem. Scott has been an honest and
open leader of the committee. He has the full support of the committee and the
board. Having a survey to obtain input from the membership and the
pattern community as a whole was Scott's idea. The raw survey data is not
modifiable by Scott. He can access it for results and that is all. To suggest
that he or anyone else on the committee would falsify results is very
insulting. <BR><BR>The rules committee is operating at the direction of
the board. The board members were presented with the four topics that have
evolved as rule change proposals. The board was presented with the original
outline in January that led to the formation of a committee and has also been
presented with the current versions of the proposals prior to the survey. I'm
sure many of the board members have also seen the vitriol poured on the
committee by a few online. All I have received from the board at this point
are words of encouragement.<BR><BR>This does not mean that all the proposals
as presented by the committee will get a rubber stamp of approval from the
board. The committee expects further modification or possible dismissal
of proposals based on the survey and opinions/amendments/votes of board
members. No matter whether the proposals are passed as is, modified or
dropped, there will be some unhappy folks on the board, the committee and the
pattern community as there are supporters and detractors for all the
proposals.<BR><BR>I have always thought that all those great pattern
folks I have met around the country and the world are capable of civil
discourse, amiable disagreement and serious compromise when it comes to
matters like these. What I have seen online about these four proposals
and the imputed ethics of the committee members has shaken my faith. It has
not, however, shaken my desire to see this task through to the
end.<BR><BR>John Gayer<BR>NSRCA Treasurer<BR>Rules Committee member<BR><BR>On
2/17/2012 8:52 PM, Dan Curtis wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:1329537160.96280.YahooMailRC@web181311.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
type="cite">
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<DIV>Okay, that is it! I asked because I want to know, I
have served on the board for several years prior and we were asked to
prove darn near everything we did, including surveys. So if you want
to attack with a C'mon Man so be it. From the views you expressed on
RCU we know how you stand on the main issue of weight, from the minutes of
the meetings for this year we know that you were able to select "volonteers"
to complete your committee, we know that the preamble was written in a way
to present the board as being for the proposed changes, so we know that some
seem to have an agenda. You asked for it so you got it. So it
would appear that we have no real verifiable way of supporting survey
results one way or the other.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I seldom post on this forum, since it usually just banter between old
friends and foes and full of insider jokes but these so called proposals are
things that should be discussed on this forum. They should have been
discussed prior to being placed in any type of survey. They affect our
sport and I believe your survey will show that they would effect it
adversely. We have been through all of this before, over and over on
weight. It seems like a resurecting ghost that we can't keep
underground. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The fact that you seem so defensive of your baby also adds to my doubt
about this whole fiasco. Now, lay off the attacks and either
answer the questions or ingnore them, your choice Mr. Chairman.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dan<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Scott McHarg <A
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com"><scmcharg@gmail.com></A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion <A
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Fri, February 17, 2012 9:34:22
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey<BR></FONT><BR>Dan,<BR> It was
actually 16 times you voted including your original. I've taken care
of the extras for you. As far as factual, really? Do you
honestly think that way? They will be factual because we are here to
serve you. If the majority says they don't like something, what would
be the purpose of doing it? If we wanted to push our own agendas, why
even have a survey? C'mon Man!<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Dan Curtis <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:warrior523@att.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:warrior523@att.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">warrior523@att.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Well, lets hope that is true, I only voted about 15 times so not a
problem.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>One other question, how will we know the results are factual?
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dan<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Tahoma>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Scott McHarg <<A
href="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:scmcharg@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">scmcharg@gmail.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Fri, February 17, 2012 9:25:53
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey<BR></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR>Hi Dan,<BR> It just makes more work for me
(which I'm sure Keith H. would enjoy greatly as he seems to have his
panties in a wad). We have several filters in place so I'll just
filter out the duplicate entries. We will know who is trying to "pad
the results". There were several folks that were having trouble
accessing the system so we had to remove the one time per user.
Either way, only the initial entry will be taken and if a bunch go in just
to screw it up for everyone, we'll just shut it down. You're right,
it makes it a bit useless when people do that.<BR><BR>Have a good
weekend,<BR>Scott<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:04 PM, Dan Curtis <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:warrior523@att.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:warrior523@att.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">warrior523@att.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new
roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Guys,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When the survey was put up on the website I filled it out and
submitted my answers. Then I could not get back in to the
survey. Which I assume was to stop a person from voting more than
once. Well, I was on the website earlier tonight and for the heck
of it I hit the survey link and low and behold I was back in and was
able to fill the survey out again. If I hit submit, I get the
results sumitted message. It appears that a person can vote as
many times as they see fit now. I had another person or two try
the same thing with the same results. Is this feature okay or is
it making the survey results a bit useless?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It may still be only countng the first time you voted or submitted
but that is not the way it appears. Anybody got an
answer???</DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#888888>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dan</DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
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href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR><B style="COLOR: rgb(51,51,255)"><FONT
style="FONT-FAMILY: comic sans ms,
sans-serif" size=4>Scott A.
McHarg</FONT></B><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR><B style="COLOR: rgb(51,51,255)"><FONT
style="FONT-FAMILY: comic sans ms, sans-serif" size=4>Scott A.
McHarg</FONT></B><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
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