<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Well, in this case, he did not mention expense. I think the point was that people could fly something they likely already had. The Osiris (and others like it) are not expensive, but they still are pattern specific so sport flyers are less likely to have them.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>JMHO.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob R.</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 2/2/12, Peter Vogel <I><vogel.peter@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Peter Vogel <vogel.peter@gmail.com><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating tonewFAIrules<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Cc: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Thursday, February 2, 2012, 6:42 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV>I don't buy the expense argument anymore. The $200-$400 Osiris from 3DHobbyShop winds up at $400-$800 all-up, depending on how you choose to equip it and is more than capable of turning in very respectable showing. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Now the $650 Vanquish even puts a full 2M plane in an affordable range. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Peter+<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone4S</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Feb 2, 2012, at 12:50 PM, "Del" <<A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=drykert2@rochester.rr.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">drykert2@rochester.rr.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Your right Peter.. The beauty of that period of flying anyone with an Ugly stick or under powered kadet could enter and fly pattern. Attendance at meets was amazing at most parts of country. That style did get some heat as blamed for loss of fields from over flights of homes etc. but if the full truth were to be looked at all flying endeavors loud and noisy aircraft flying near and over homes was the bigger culprit. Pattern was at the forefront of addressing that and mandating a reasonable sound level at the nats especially but bonus points could be award for quiet aircraft and penalties for noisy planes. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>The other big advantage was as recently petitioned people would come out and enjoy themselves flying after only practicing the weekend before if at all and do fairly well sometimes. The changes have hurt overall mass attendance but the quality of the flying by competitors has improved dramatically. Some like that tradeoff. Others not so much. Partially because of increased expenses to compete means they can't participate and still feel they made a reasonable showing. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial> Del</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A title=vogel.peter@gmail.com href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vogel.peter@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com">Peter Vogel</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:15 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating tonewFAIrules</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>OK. Looking at some of the old rule books, I'm confused. Take for example the novice sequence from 86-87:
<DIV>Takeoff</DIV>
<DIV>Straight flight out (U)</DIV>
<DIV>Procedure turn</DIV>
<DIV>Straight flight back (D)</DIV>
<DIV>Stall Turn (U)</DIV>
<DIV>Immelmann Turn (U)</DIV>
<DIV>3 inside loops (U)</DIV>
<DIV>One horizontal roll (D)</DIV>
<DIV>Landing</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The procedure turn, stall turn, and Immelmann sure seem like turnarounds to me, granted to meet the mandatory directions relative to wind you would need to have a free turnaround between the straight flight back and the stall turn, and another free turnaround between the stall and the Immelmann, etc. So were all the "stunt" turns intended to be executed at show center with a free turnaround outside the box between each maneuver? </DIV>
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<DIV>I'm amazed at the amount of "heat" (aka: passion) there seems to have been in the K-factor around the change to turnaround schedules. I admit I like my 2 "free" turnarounds outside the box in Sportsman between maneuvers 6+7 and 11+12 but I could muddle through without them if I had to, and I honestly can't imagine flying such a disjoint sequence as the ones I'm seeing in the old rulebooks. Hardly feels like a "sequence".</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Peter+</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=yiv1279570427gmail_quote>On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:43 AM, J N Hiller <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<P class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><SPAN><FONT color=navy face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The sequences flown were published in the old rule books. Be aware that over the years some of the class names changed.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><SPAN><FONT color=navy face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Some time back I applied K-factors to those non-turnaround schedules to try to understand the migration of increasing difficulty, concluding that the K-factor alone is a poor indicator of actual difficulty. But we all step up to the challenge regardless of the difficulty.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><SPAN><FONT color=navy face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Jim <U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><SPAN><FONT color=navy face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<P class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><SPAN><FONT color=navy face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
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<DIV class=yiv1279570427im><FONT color=black face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Peter Vogel<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:23 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=yiv1279570427h5><FONT color=black face=Tahoma><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Discussion List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating tonew FAIrules</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I was reading some of the archived K-factors and it got me curious, is there an archive of the sequences pre-turnaround?</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Peter+<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone4S</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>On Jan 31, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Joe Lachowski <<A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jlachow@hotmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:jlachow@hotmail.com">jlachow@hotmail.com</A>> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You can log on at the NSRCA website and then proceed to the judges section and click on archived documents. Thanks to Jim Hiller who provided me a lot of these, I was able to scan them in and put them into the PDF Format. Anyone who has anything older than whats up there, send a hard copy to me to scan and I'll have Derek put them up.<BR> </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal align=center><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
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<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:45:38 -0800<BR>From: <A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</A><BR>To: <A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<BR><BR>We have a pretty good collection of AMA and FAI rule books on the website if anyone wants to see what rules were like, or how much they have changed over the years... </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Click on the link below:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><A href="http://nsrca.us/index.php/archiveddocuments" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://nsrca.us/index.php/archiveddocuments</A> </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Jon Lowe <<A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jonlowe@aol.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com">jonlowe@aol.com</A>> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 0.75pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">It would appear that the FAI is going down the same road as IMAC, with IMAC's subjective "airspace control" factor. The smoothness and gracefulness 25% gives a judge a non-objective way to give a downgrade of 2 to 3 points. Since there is no scoring criteria for it that I could find, other than Michael Ramel's instructions to the judges at the WC, I'm not sure what we do with it. I would think that his instructions would have been protestable, if anyone had wanted to go down that path, since I'm unaware of any official FAI rule interpretation saying, for example, that constant speed is a
part of smoothness and gracefulness. I'm sure he was just trying to give meaning to a poorly writen criteria.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<P style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Very sorry to see the FAI going this way.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class=yiv1279570427MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Jon</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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